Clipper Creek vs. Leviton

[mets67]

Picking up my Fusion Energi Titanium this Saturday!! And now that I found an electrician that will not charge me an arm and a leg to trench out to where the charging station needs to be installed, I am going to go with a 240v level 2. I've been reading different things on this forum as well as others about the Clipper Creek LCS-25 and the Leviton EVB32-8ML. Clipper Creek costs $595 and Leviton $899. Besides the $300 price difference are there ant other differences which would warrant spending the extra $300?

 

 

[47Minutes]

Don't forget this recently announced nugget:  http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/11/bosch-introduces-affordable-home-ev-charger/

[Russael]

Fundamentally, they're all the same.  They have a computer circuit that negotiates charging rates with the car and then a big relay that closes/opens the 240v service to your car.  The enclosures themselves may be rated differently (The Siemens one has a 'higher standard', however, people have complained of the plastic mount).  I went with the Leviton simply because at the time, that was the Ford preferred brand.  Now it's AeroVironment.

 

The only things that really matter is your vehicle cord length (I'm seeing 14' to 24'), and the plug cord length if you get one that's not hard wired.  Other than that, they're all built to the same exact standards for J1772 compatibility.

[murphy]

The Clipper requires a 25 amp circuit and appears to be a hard wired version.  25 amps is non-standard and will probably use a 30 amp circuit.

The Leviton requires a 32 amp circuit and uses a 6-50P plug which means it will probably need a 50 amp circuit.

A 30 amp circuit requires 10 gauge wire and a 50 amp circuit requires 6 gauge wire.

If the wire run is really long a larger wire gauge is needed to minimize voltage drop.

The Energi only needs a 16 amp charger since that is all the car can handle.

Leviton makes a 16 amp charger which is what I have.  Unless you plan to buy an all electric car in the near future it is pointless and expensive to install more capacity than you need.  Make sure the underground run is in conduit large enough to hold the largest wire size that might be needed in the future.  It is relatively easy to pull bigger wires to replace wires that are too small if needed in the future.  Copper wire is expensive.

 

The electrician may be giving you a deal on his fee but the cost of the wire is a significant item.

125 ft of 6/2 wire is around $150.

[BadRock]

You could actually get away with a 40 amp circuit for the Leviton, the plug is rated to 50 amps but you don't have the bring the whole circuit to 50.

 

You will also need a 3 conductor cable for this run as you alway have to supply a means of grounding. So you're looking at 125' of 8/3 or 10/3. Either way it's going to cost you some change for the copper.

[GregKet1]

Clipper Creek is rated at 20A continuous.  The 25A breaker may just be for startup.  I easily found a 25A breaker on Amazon.  Much cheaper than Homedepot or Lowes.

[Russael]

Here's the thing I'm sort of seeing about circuit ratings, etc.  If you install a 32A charger that requires the NEMA 14-50R plug, that needs to be wired for 50 amp service with a 50 amp breaker or it will fail inspection.  Can you put a 40A breaker on a 50A plug?  For inspection purposes, no, as stupid as it sounds.  The only reason I can think of for that is if someone plugs in a device that utilizes 40A of current (80% of a 50A circuit's maximum), it will trip the 40A breaker since the plug is over rated, and people won't expect the breaker to be under rated for that type of plug.  If you install the 50A receptacle, it needs to be wired with 6 gauge wire too.

 

General rule of thumb is to not exceed 80% of the working maximum of a circuit.  That's why you see vacuum cleaners rated at 12A... that's 80% of a 15A circuit.  That's why my Leviton 16A charger is rated at 16A - it's 80% of the 20A maximum.  And the largest Leviton model they offer, which is at 40A, is again 80% of a 50A circuit maximum.  If you bought the 32A Leviton charger and it was the HARDWIRED model, then YES, you can put that on a 40A breaker.  32A is 80% of a 40A maximum.  But the 32A pluggable one will need to be wired on a circuit that is 50A through and through.

 

The ONLY type of branch circuit where a breaker can exceed the rating of the receptacles is with household 120V outlets.  Most of those have up to a 20A pass-through, and if you wire all of those with 12 gauge wire, you can put the entire circuit rating at 20A, not 15 as the outlet suggests.  However, you're not allowed to do this if you have a single 120V outlet that's rated for 15A on a 20A circuit... there must be a minimum of 2 outlets on a single circuit.

 

I did a lot of digging on that as I turned my 240 circuit in the garage to a branch circuit (more than 1 outlet).

[BadRock]

Here's the thing I'm sort of seeing about circuit ratings, etc.  If you install a 32A charger that requires the NEMA 14-50R plug, that needs to be wired for 50 amp service with a 50 amp breaker or it will fail inspection.  Can you put a 40A breaker on a 50A plug?  For inspection purposes, no, as stupid as it sounds.  The only reason I can think of for that is if someone plugs in a device that utilizes 40A of current (80% of a 50A circuit's maximum), it will trip the 40A breaker since the plug is over rated, and people won't expect the breaker to be under rated for that type of plug.  If you install the 50A receptacle, it needs to be wired with 6 gauge wire too.

 

General rule of thumb is to not exceed 80% of the working maximum of a circuit.  That's why you see vacuum cleaners rated at 12A... that's 80% of a 15A circuit.  That's why my Leviton 16A charger is rated at 16A - it's 80% of the 20A maximum.  And the largest Leviton model they offer, which is at 40A, is again 80% of a 50A circuit maximum.  If you bought the 32A Leviton charger and it was the HARDWIRED model, then YES, you can put that on a 40A breaker.  32A is 80% of a 40A maximum.  But the 32A pluggable one will need to be wired on a circuit that is 50A through and through.

 

The ONLY type of branch circuit where a breaker can exceed the rating of the receptacles is with household 120V outlets.  Most of those have up to a 20A pass-through, and if you wire all of those with 12 gauge wire, you can put the entire circuit rating at 20A, not 15 as the outlet suggests.  However, you're not allowed to do this if you have a single 120V outlet that's rated for 15A on a 20A circuit... there must be a minimum of 2 outlets on a single circuit.

 

I did a lot of digging on that as I turned my 240 circuit in the garage to a branch circuit (more than 1 outlet).

 

I can also tell you this, UL, NEMA and NEC do not play well with one and other. I own an industrial systems integration business and we are UL listed, to follow UL guidelines it may impede on other standards.

 

You are permitted to install a higher rated receptacle on a less breaker, however after a little more investigation you are correct.

 

NFPA 70 - 625.40

Overcurrent Protection. Overcurrent protection

for feeders and branch circuits supplying electric vehicle

supply equipment shall be sized for continuous duty and

shall have a rating of not less than 125 percent of the

maximum load of the electric vehicle supply equipment.

Where noncontinuous loads are supplied from the same

feeder or branch circuit, the overcurrent device shall have a

rating of not less than the sum of the noncontinuous loads

plus 125 percent of the continuous loads.

 

 

32A X 1.25 = 40 amp continuous load = 50amp breaker

 

See ARTICLE 625 (Electric Vehicle Charging System) This is the 2014 DRAFT but it'd going to be 99.5% accurate or you can purchase a current version. 

http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/70-A2013-ROPDraft.pdf

[Guest drfeltersnatch]

Picking up my Fusion Energi Titanium this Saturday!! And now that I found an electrician that will not charge me an arm and a leg to trench out to where the charging station needs to be installed, I am going to go with a 240v level 2. I've been reading different things on this forum as well as others about the Clipper Creek LCS-25 and the Leviton EVB32-8ML. Clipper Creek costs $595 and Leviton $899. Besides the $300 price difference are there ant other differences which would warrant spending the extra $300?

 

http://knowwhatyoudrive.com

 

 

do that and get $50 credit off the clipper creek. buy directly from them. tell Will that Christopher with the fusion energi sent ya! 

 

awesome people. went to their office yesterday.

Edited May 15, 2013 at 06:15 PM by drfeltersnatch

[Russael]

I can also tell you this, UL, NEMA and NEC do not play well with one and other. I own an industrial systems integration business and we are UL listed, to follow UL guidelines it may impede on other standards.

 

You are permitted to install a higher rated receptacle on a less breaker, however after a little more investigation you are correct.

 

NFPA 70 - 625.40

Overcurrent Protection. Overcurrent protection

for feeders and branch circuits supplying electric vehicle

supply equipment shall be sized for continuous duty and

shall have a rating of not less than 125 percent of the

maximum load of the electric vehicle supply equipment.

Where noncontinuous loads are supplied from the same

feeder or branch circuit, the overcurrent device shall have a

rating of not less than the sum of the noncontinuous loads

plus 125 percent of the continuous loads.

 

 

32A X 1.25 = 40 amp continuous load = 50amp breaker

 

See ARTICLE 625 (Electric Vehicle Charging System) This is the 2014 DRAFT but it'd going to be 99.5% accurate or you can purchase a current version. 

http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/70-A2013-ROPDraft.pdf

 

Actually... I may be wrong.  I finally found the NEC article that says you can put a 50 amp receptacle on a 40 amp circuit.

 

http://freenec.com/T28.html

 

Admittedly, I don't know if that article is old, new, current, expired, etc.  It also answered another question I had in regards to circuit/receptacle requirements.

[BadRock]

Actually... I may be wrong.  I finally found the NEC article that says you can put a 50 amp receptacle on a 40 amp circuit.

 

http://freenec.com/T28.html

 

Admittedly, I don't know if that article is old, new, current, expired, etc.  It also answered another question I had in regards to circuit/receptacle requirements.

 

You can definitely put a 50R on a 40 amp breaker, just not in this application. NEC is written by insurance companies so standard logic need not apply!

[Earthdog]

I own 2 Clipper Creek LS25's I love them. Check out www.metropluggins.com 

[mets67]

http://knowwhatyoudrive.com

 

 

do that and get $50 credit off the clipper creek. buy directly from them. tell Will that Christopher with the fusion energi sent ya! 

 

awesome people. went to their office yesterday.

 

Thanks for the link to the $50 bucks off. Ordered it and told him you sent me!

[Guest drfeltersnatch]

excellent! They're good people. I went with the leviton 40a charger because we are charging a tesla model s and the fusion energi so it made more sense. I wish they had a 40a that was priced like the leviton. 

 

Enjoy your new charger!