Let's talk about the Winter

[Rhyalus]

So in the depths of Winter, when my car is parked at the airport for a couple of days, does the engine need to be "warmed" up?  How does the ICE engine get it's fluids moving and warmed up, which we have sort of been trained to believe is needed?

 

Even if it is in EV later mode, the car always starts with just the EV motor.

 

Unimportant?

 

R

 

[larryh]

The Fusion Energi has an electric heater to heat the engine coolant.  It has a main electric pump to circulate the coolant for the engine, and smaller pumps to circulate the coolant to the inverter and the cabin heater core.  So the car can be warmed up with battery power alone.  Note that the generator serves as the starter for the ICE. 

 

If it is not too cold and the battery has enough charge, the ICE does not need to start (at least when it is in the upper 20's from experience).   However, you are not going to get high EV mileage when it is cold. 

 

I suspect the ICE will start when it is really cold (since the battery is not going to work well when it is cold) and it will warm up just like any other car.   If you can find a charging station at the airport, you could warm up the car using power from the power company and save your battery for propulsion (I don't suppose that would be an option if you are leaving the car there for a while). 

 

I notice the following from the owners manual:

 

Possible Message on the information Display:

Transmission Warming Up Please Wait:  Transmission is too cold.  Wait for it to warm up before you drive.

 

 

Why does my engine stay on when it is extremely cold outside?

 

In order to ensure that the climate control

system can begin heating the cabin or

defrosting the windshield as soon as a

driver requests it, the engine coolant

temperature has to be kept sufficiently hot.

Keeping the engine on is required to maintain

the correct minimum temperature. (For

Fusion Energi vehicles, this is not required

to maintain cabin conditions.)

 

 
 

Engine On due to  Batt Temperature (Energi Only)  The engine is on due to high or low high-voltage battery temperature. This is a normal operating condition. The vehicle returns to electric mode automatically when possible. 

 

 

It appears the only reason the ICE needs to start is if the battery is too cold.  I wonder how a pure electric car handles this?

 

Edited May 15, 2013 at 12:35 AM by larryh

[Rhyalus]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Larry...

 

I think that you are right;  if the temp gets too low, the ICE will have to start and warm up the system overall.

 

Unfortunately, I do not think that attaching to power in the long term parking lot will be possible - in NY, we are still just talking about widespread availability.  It is not a reality yet.

 

Even if I connected, though, I would still need to set a "go" time to "warm up" the system, right?  Just being attached to the grid would not do anything.  Due to the variability of air travel, I would not set a go time to pre-condition the vehicle, knowing that there was a 75% chance that I might not be there.

 

R

[Russael]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Larry...

 

I think that you are right;  if the temp gets too low, the ICE will have to start and warm up the system overall.

 

Unfortunately, I do not think that attaching to power in the long term parking lot will be possible - in NY, we are still just talking about widespread availability.  It is not a reality yet.

 

Even if I connected, though, I would still need to set a "go" time to "warm up" the system, right?  Just being attached to the grid would not do anything.  Due to the variability of air travel, I would not set a go time to pre-condition the vehicle, knowing that there was a 75% chance that I might not be there.

 

R

 

Remote start your car through the cell phone app if you left it plugged in long term... no need for a go-time.  At least that way, as you're making your way to the car, it'll be busy warming up for you off of the grid.

[Rhyalus]

BTW, discovered with experimenting today that hitting the gas pedal while in park (and thus in EV) will fire up the ICE...

 

R

[larryh]

I was trying to determine whether the Fusion Energi or Hybrid would be better for my winter commute to work, so I researched this topic.  The major differences that factored into my consideration were the Energi's larger battery, plug in capability, and electric heater for the engine coolant.  I was convinced that being able to warm up the car using the electric heater and power from the power company was a much better option when going to work from home.  

 

However, I wasn't so sure about the return trip home since I don't have a place to plug the car in.  I will probably have to remote start the car and let the electric heater warm up the car before I leave work.   That might not leave me enough charge to get home without starting the ICE.  But the alternative would be to let the ICE start to warm up the car.  However, I suspect the electric heater is going to come on anyway to warm the car up as fast as possible.  As with all gas engines, I suspect it will have poor fuel efficiency in the winter.  I will have to experiment to find out the optimal strategy next winter. 

 

I was experimenting with the Run Power Active Mode, when you don't press the brake before pressing the start button.  It was cold, so I had the electric heater going with the car plugged in using the 110 volt charger.  The battery charge was low and getting lower--the charger could not keep up.  Then to my dismay the ICE started.  I was parked in the garage with the door closed.  I would not expect the ICE to run in Run Power Active Mode.  It should shut off the heater first rather than starting the engine.  In a normal car, the engine would never start in accessory mode.  I am going to get a 240 volt charger.  Otherwise, warming up the car, even when it is plugged in, is going to drain the battery in the winter.  Winter is when I need a fully charged battery the most to minimize the use of the ICE.

Edited May 15, 2013 at 10:27 PM by larryh

[Rhyalus]

You know Larry, the Energi is a pretty efficient hybrid. Using the ICE is not really all that bad...

 

Personally, I want to use as much electric power as possible, but 43 mpg or so is respectable. In the winter we may just need to use a bit more gas.

 

R

[larryh]

Yes, the ICE is very efficient. On my last 56 mile trip driving mostly on freeways/highways, the ICE used 0.77 gallons of gas.  20 miles were in EV mode.   So that works out to 46 mpg in hybrid mode.  I'm not sure what I would get in city driving.  So far, that has all been in EV mode.

 

I just read the local news.  Gas prices are now $4.19 per gallon.  

Edited May 16, 2013 at 12:51 AM by larryh

[Edman951]

On my gf C-max Hydrid , in the Canadian winter, the ICE will start seconds after you turn the key on, even with a full charge.

As it senses the cold, and that it need to be at operation temperature for later use.

Versus now warmer, we can drive away in EV and the ICE will turn on when needed.

Im sure the ECU will Command the ICE and E-heater to come on to heat up faster. For performance and comfort.

 

Any car is harder on MPG in the winter.

Exp, my BMW 550 does 16mpg in the Winter, and 19mpg in the summer. (combined mpg DD) 

[Rhyalus]

Thanks for confirming, Edman!

 

I believe that keeping it on the grid would NOT change any of that, either.

 

R

 

Edit: added the word NOT.

Edited May 16, 2013 at 11:08 AM by Rhyalus

[Russael]

Here's the thing about the Hybrid - that doesn't run an electric heater at all, so any heat you need or want is going to come from the ICE only.  I've read some complaints about the cabin not getting very warm once the ICE starts cycling on and off in the dead of winter for hybrid cars.  The electric heater with the Energi vehicles and the Focus BEV should be sufficient to warm the vehicle before a departure time if you set a go time.  As far as when the engine itself starts due to temperature for the Energi models (if you're not plugged in, still have a charge, and it's very cold outside), I'm not sure what the threshold is for that.  I also don't know if the heater and engine will come on together to warm the vehicle at a really high rate of speed.  Be nice if it did though. :)

 

My Focus would get about 22MPG in winter for city travel... and my Expedtion... 10. :)

[shaggy314]

+1 for the heated seats in mine. Direct heat ftw. :-D

 

Don't need to run the heat nearly as much as you think with them, yeah your hand MAY get a little cold...

Edited May 16, 2013 at 04:15 PM by shaggy314

[zimm25]

Does the ICE ever turn on when remote starting or using Go Time?  I'm concerned about parking indoors and having the car warm-up in the garage.  I assumed that if the car was plugged-in, the ICE wouldn't ever start, but that's clearly not the case.  

 

I'm like a lot of the northern owners who really need the car to be warmed-up prior to starting my drive or I'll be running on the ICE much more frequently on my daily commute.  

[Russael]

If the charge isn't sufficient in the car, there is a chance of having the ICE come on when it's very cold while remote starting.  I saw a video of someone remote starting a Volt while it was plugged in and the ICE immediately came on.  However, with Go Times, since it knows what time you're going to leave, I'd assume the system would leave enough lead-time to warm the car sufficiently before departing (the length of time of preconditioning could be variable).  I don't know for sure. 

[Ekpsych]

Can someone explain exactly how the heating system works.

Electric only?

Electric + ICE?

Most efficient method for heating cabin when starting out with a cold and fully charged battery?

[tseibel76]

Ekpsych,

 

The heating system will try and stay all electric if possible. The car has an electric heating element and will not use the ICE if that can heat the car sufficiently. This depends entirely on conditions (climate settings, outside temp, etc.).

 

However, if the electric heating element won't cut it (too cold outside, heat set high, etc.) the car will turn on the ICE to supplement the heating system. I'm not exactly sure what conditions trigger this or exactly how the ICE supplements the electric. However, I've seen this in action.

 

I leave the system in full manual mode, lowest fan speed, Lo temp, floor vents. Earlier in the week, when it was in the 20's, if I upped the temp to 60, the electric heater kicked in and the system showed climate energy usage. It warmed the cabin, no ICE. However, last night it was 2 above zero. Totally different story. As soon as I upped the temp to 60, the ICE fired up. The center display said the engine was on due to "Heater Settings". It would run for a short while, then go back to all electric for a few minutes. Then, a couple minutes later, the ICE would fire again, run for 20-30 seconds, then go back to all electric for a minute or two. This cycle kept repeating as I drove around.

 

I had juice left in the HVB and the electric heater was also on during all of this because the system continued to show the climate using power. It would vary as I was driving. I have been living w/o heat, but it is just getting too cold here (ND). In the mornings I leave from a heated garage (around 50) so I can make it to work w/o heat. However, at night, the car is cold from being outside all day.

 

I was impressed how much the car could stay in all electric with temps just a few degrees above zero. I am fine with burning a little gas in the coldest months of the year.

 

As far as efficiency, I think it depends on gas/electricity costs in your area. For me, it is definitely cheaper to stay in all electric if possible. It also depends on your commute distance and your ability to charge away from home. If your commute is long enough and you always have to use the ICE anyway after draining the HVB, then it might be better to use the ICE right away for heat (EV Later) and switch back to all electric once your warmed up. I guess it all really depends on your commute, conditions, and settings.

[JimT]

Living in Boise, it's getting cold.  Battery capacity has dropped from 20+ miles in Auguest to 12 miles in November.  Is that normal, or do I need a tech to find the problem?

[Russael]

Welcome to the boards, JimT.  The reduction in range is normal.  During the summer with no A/C, my car would estimate up to 33 miles.  Now, that temps are between 20 and 30 in the morning, my estimate without climate is 21.  With heat, I've seen as low as 14.  If you have a 240v charging station, definitely take advantage of 'go times' (which only work while the car is plugged in).  They may not warm the car to the Bahamas, but it'll at least take the chill off and save some of your battery.

[Griff]

I use the electric battery with no heat until I hit the highway. Then I go to "EV Later" on the highway because the ICE does a much better job of heating the cabin. After the heat gets up to about 75, I go back into "EV Now" and the ICE never kicks on to maintain the heat. My coldest days have been in the low 20s.

[tseibel76]

Here is our 5-day forecast.  Looks like I'll get the chance to experiment.  Yesterday, it was about 5 above.  The car had been sitting out all day at work.  On my way home, the ICE came on after I had been driving around for about 5 minutes, saying it was on because of "Normal Operation".  I did not have the heat on and had been running on electric up to that point.  I then turned the heat on at 60.  The ICE would cycle on and off and the system said the ICE was on due to "Heater Settings".  It looks to me like at about 10 degrees or colder, the ICE will come on just to heat the cabin (assisting the HVB if you have enough charge).  I had plenty of charge left, though that dropped much quicker than normal.  The system used both the ICE and the HVB to heat the cabin.  The ICE seemed to just be in idle speed. It didn't seem to change based on acceleration or deceleration.  I was in EV Auto.  Also, it seemed that the ICE cycled less frequently and for shorter periods once the cabin had warmed up.

 

[larryh]

This morning, it was 6 degrees.  I preconditioned the car in the garage (which was 24 degrees).  The car was nice and warm.  It consumed about 2.1 kWh of electricity and started preconditioning 40 minutes before the GO time. The ICE never came on for the drive to work, even with the heater on.  I had the mode set to EV Now.

 

On the way home, it was 8 degrees.  The car was outside all day.  The ICE started after a few minutes even with the climate control off and in EV Now mode.  It cycled on and off periodically on the way home. 

[tseibel76]

It was below zero all day. The high was -3. The car was outside at work from 7:45 to 4:45. The ICE fired up right away when I pushed the start button (climate was off). Looks like that is the threshold for the ICE.

 

After a minute or two, it started cycling on and off. Even at -5, the car can stay in all electric most of the time once it's warmed up.

 

Tomorrow's "high" is -11.

[Fat Fusion]

Dang.  Hats off to you folks who can tolerate living in an area like that.  It was the coldest I've ever seen here in the Silicon Valley area last night.  My car said 19* on the way to work this morning driving out of Morgan Hill.  My go time had the car somewhat conditioned I suppose.  At least the frost was melted off the windshield.  The heated seat just might be the best part of this car!

[robertlane]

My trip to Green Bay

 

 

Truth be told, I love the winter and don't miss my home state of Florida all that much during this time.  I will, however, begin to miss it come February!

[AungJoMomma]

Every question I had was answered in this thread!  Thanks!  It is currently -6 with a low of -10 tonight and tomorrow. I have no idea what happened to our mild winter.