Why we bought a plug in hybrid electric car

[doug]

Hi Everyone, I leased a Fusion Energi Titanium this past weekend and I love it.

I've created a blog to share what I'm learning about the car.  The forum admins here have granted me permission to post links to my blog articles here for discussion.

Please have a read and post comments on this forum thread:  Why we bought a plug in hybrid electric car

I'd prefer to promote this forum and have discussions here rather than on my blog.

[DelS]

Hey Doug nice post.   Buying an electric powered car is an ethical, responsible choice.    No one's limbs are being blown off fighting to protect Shells' product supply lines in the deserts abroad.   There is a reason why gas companies go to great lengths to hide the contents of the 'water' they inject during fracking.  And hundreds of thousands of people die every year in the U.S. from asthma related, and preventable ailments exacerbated by pollution.     

 

Sorry to get so graphic, but after all, we are adults, here.   

[MERCMAN]

Doug,

I agree with most of your ethical reasons for leasing an EV.

However, from what I've read, the impact on carbon emissions depends on where you live.

For example, in Indiana, which produces electricity largely from coal, an EV is "worse" for the ozone layer than a gas fired auto.

While in northern Illinois, where electricity is mostly from nuclear plants, an EV is "better" than a gas fired auto.

My son is in the oil industry and points out that the actual facts of gas/electricity are often misstated.

However, I agree that the future is in EVs.

 

I am planning on leasing an EV, either a Fusion Energi or a Chevy Volt.  The Volt's gas engine runs a generator that powers the electric drive motors.  Question:  Does the Fusion's gas engine power the wheels directly?  If not how does it work?

Marshall Moretta

Edited August 1, 2013 at 02:58 PM by MERCMAN

[Russael]

Welcome to the board Mercman.

 

I usually don't refute things right out of the gate, however, your remark about an EV being worse for the Ozone than a gas fired auto depends on the type of vehicle you're driving and it's rated economy.  Tesla did some research in to it, but I don't remember what gas equivalent car for emissions comparison was made.

 

I pulled up a few websites to see if I could find something that backs that statement.  A couple do.

 

From http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/smart-transportation-solutions/advanced-vehicle-technologies/electric-cars/emissions-and-charging-costs-electric-cars.html

 

• Nationwide, EVs charged from the electricity grid produce lower global warming emissions than the average compact gasoline-powered vehicle (with a fuel economy of 27 miles per gallon)—even when the electricity is produced primarily from coal in regions with the “dirtiest” electricity grids.
• In regions with the “cleanest” electricity grids, EVs produce lower global warming emissions than even the most fuel-efficient hybrids.
• EVs charged entirely from renewable sources like wind and solar power produce virtually no global warming emissions.

From New York Times:  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/automobiles/how-green-are-electric-cars-depends-on-where-you-plug-in.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

 

 

Here’s another way to look at it: if one region were completely dependent on coal for power, its electric cars would be responsible for full-cycle global-warming emissions equivalent to a car capable of 30 m.p.g. in mixed driving. In a region totally reliant on natural gas, an electric would be equivalent to a 50 m.p.g. gasoline-engine car.

 

Average fuel economy for cars has gone way up in recent years.  The Focus does 28 to 40, the Fiesta 30 to 40, the Escape 23 to 32, and the gas Fusion 22 to 34.  I'm leaving out everything else that doesn't have a number over 30.  It depends on if you live on the freeway with your car.  Most vehicles in non-jammed city travel will make a little above their average city rating.  My mother's Fusion averages 22MPG (2008 model with 4-cyl).  So, I'm more inclined to think that an electric, even in an all coal-generated zone, can still beat the emissions of a traditional gas vehicle, depending on how they're used.  Hybrids stomp all over them since they generate their own power, up until you get in to very clean power generation.

 

Solar energy, wind energy, and other alternative, cleaner forms of energy are being heavily pushed, so grid generation is going to continue to get cleaner and cleaner.  It's also a lot easier to control emissions from one source (the plant) over many sources (the automobile). 

 

Aside from that, I'm happy to hear that you have a strong interest in a PHEV, be it from Ford or Chevy.  Hopefully you'll let us know what you acquire.

Edited August 1, 2013 at 03:44 PM by Russael

[larryh]

Yes, both the gas engine and electric motor provide power to the wheels.  Then can both contribute simultaneously, or just one or the other can contribute.  When the battery is depleted, the car turns into a hybrid and car functions similarly to the Fusion Hybrid.

Edited August 1, 2013 at 08:58 PM by larryh

[Depauwler]

I live in Indiana (mostly coal) and I pay for the garage where I park, but not the electricity.  Still, I opted for the green-energy plan from my electric company.  Assuming it's not just a scam, I imagine my apartment using green-energy should more than offset the 10kWh or so I use a week to charge the car.

[http]

For Mercman and Russael above, you might be interested in a discussion going on now on the IEEE web site.  The IEEE Spectrum published an article last month entitled "Unclean at Any Speed" in which the author, Ozzie Zehner, a visiting professor at UC Berkeley, claims that electric vehicles are no better for the environment than conventional gasoline vehicles.  Well, that article touched off such controversy that the IEEE had to open a special web site (http://spectrum.ieee.org/static/evs-and-the-environment-the-discussion-continues) just to handle the discussion.  I'm just a software engineer and not qualified to offer a learned position, but when you consider all the infrastructure, the oil rigs, ocean vessels, refineries, pipelines, tanker trucks, gas stations, etc. needed to support ICE vehicles, I can't see that being as clean or cleaner than electric, even with coal mines and nuclear waste.

 

In any event, I love my Energi. I might take it back to a gas station some day, but for now, I'm using mostly electric and getting 135 miles per gas gallon.

Edited August 9, 2013 at 09:17 PM by http

[Russael]

Thanks for the link, HTTP.  I read over the entire article, "Unclean at Any Speed", and found that the author seemed to cherrypick the articles he wanted to bring to attention.  I don't see any research of his own.

 

There are SO MANY different companies and even individuals who have researched and drawn their own conclusions.  It is difficult to get all the real numbers for everything though.  I wish he gave some solid numbers or data for the total amount of emissions and environmental damage for the FINAL MANUFACTURE of both a compact car such as the Ford Focus and then one more for the Focus Electric.  The cars are identical for everything except the powertrain.  I think those would provide the fairest comparison.  If the electric Focus was more environmentally damaging than the gas car, then I'd be interested to see the same numbers 10 years later, when the car may be due for a battery replacement.  Top Gear UK mentioned that a Prius was very damaging too (it runs on nickel metal hydride batteries) and was worse than a gas powered equivalent, but then they ran a ridiculous test to see if they could make the car get worse fuel economy than a BMW 5 series by racing the prius at full tilt, which they were able to do, but that wasn't typical driving either.

 

The whole point is to lessen the environmental impact we have by moving to electrification.  A vast amount of research has shown that it does, and a very small handful say we aren't.  I wonder what other things the naysayers have seen that say we're moving in the opposite direction.

 

What sparked the whole electric movement IS our current president (I know he's done a lot of things that people are upset about, but I give him props for jumpstarting this movement) and the fact that gas prices are stupid.  It is less expensive for the consumer to drive on electricity, at least during off-peak hours) for everybody.  Usually the cost of something is dependent on how much work has to go in to producing a final product.

 

I'm insanely happy with my Fusion Energi, and haven't looked back since getting it.  :)

[MERCMAN]

Thanks to all responders to my original post!  I keep learning....perhaps the answer to EVs is evolving.

I read the Ozzie Zehner (visiting professor at UC Berkeley) article also and agree with Russeal's comments.

I'm also not qualified to offer a learned position as "http" commented but I agree with his conclusions.

 

Thanks to "larryh" for the info on how the Fusion powers the wheels.

I'm still planning on purchasing/leasing a Fusion Energi SE Luxury and look forward to being as "insanely happy" as the rest of you.

:)  ;) 

[dlb92]

The people that go to the extreme of "unclean at any speed" would rather us live in mud huts, go back to the stone age and/or take away some of our freedom by forcing us to use mass transportation.

 

This guy is probably funded by big railroad companies or something.

[larryh]

The electric company providing electricity to my home offers the option of purchasing electricity from wind power.  If you sign up for the program they will commit to purchasing the amount of electricity that you consume from Wind Farms.  As more people sign up, they commit to adding new wind power generation resources.  So for people who want to support renewable energy resources, this is a way to make a difference. The mix of energy sources used for power generation is a big factor in determining the total emissions generated by operating a PHEV vehicle.  So if your electric company has similar programs, you have the means of influencing the amount of emissions required to generate the electricity that powers the car.  I can choose to have 100% of my electricity come from Wind Power, which means close to zero emissions for the electricity I use and the electricity used to power the car.  More than half of my miles comes from plug-in energy.  Thus I can significantly reduce total emissions.

 

Note that the normal mix of energy sources for power generation from my electric company is:

42%  coal,

38% natural gas,

8% hydro electric,

4% oil,

4% purchased,

2% wind,

2% other

 

The following is another report comparing total emissions of gas and electric vehicles:  http://assets.climatecentral.org/pdfs/ClimateFriendlyCarsReport_Final.pdf

Edited August 10, 2013 at 12:12 PM by larryh

[larryh]

My car is now powered by the wind.  I signed up for the option from the power company to purchase wind energy.  It costs $0.40 per 100 kWh of electricity consumed.  That amounts to about $2.80/month. 

Edited August 10, 2013 at 11:25 PM by larryh

[dlb92]

How is that possible?  Why wouldn't everyone use wind power? That is like $0.004 cents per KWh. There has to be some catch.

[larryh]

This is from the FAQs for the program:

 

Is wind energy cheaper to produce than  conventional generation options?

While wind is free, capturing it and converting it to electric power is slightly more expensive than conventional generation options. The government currently provides financial incentives to make the price of wind-generated power more competitive, and as technology advances, wind power becomes more cost competitive. Additionally, the windiest areas are often far from areas that use the most power, requiring transmission line construction and adding to the overall cost of wind energy.

 

So the short answer is that the government, i.e. tax dollars, is subsidizing the cost.  Minnesota has passed legislation requiring that a certain percentage of the electricity supplied to residents of the state be generated from renewable resources.  The percentage varies by year.   It is 25% by 2025.

 

 

For another power company in MN, it is $0.90 / 100 kWh block as described below.  My electric company charges $0.40 / 100 kWh block.

 

Windsource subscriptions are available in 100 kilowatt-hour (kWh) blocks for a small additional premium of $3.53 per block, less a credit for fuel costs. In 2010, the average fuel cost credit was $2.63, making the average net charge for Windsource $0.90 per block.

Edited August 10, 2013 at 10:51 PM by larryh

[dlb92]

I still don't get it... Why wouldn't everyone sign up for it?

 

And if everyone signed up for it there is no way they could provide that much power..

 

Are you only eligible if you have a plug-in car?

Edited August 10, 2013 at 11:56 PM by dlb92

[larryh]

Anyone is eligible:  https://www.dakotaelectric.com/residential/programs/wellspring_wind_energy

 

I assume they would terminate the program if they could not provide that much wind energy.  But they have a long way to go at the moment to get to 25% power generation from renewable resources.  As more people sign up, they build additional wind turbines.  I don't know what power companies in other states offer.

Edited August 11, 2013 at 12:17 AM by larryh

[dlb92]

So you aren't getting 100kwh for $0.40..you are getting it for your regular rate plus $0.40.

 

"For each 100 kilowatt-hour block you purchase, there is an additional charge of 40 cents* on your bill"

Edited August 11, 2013 at 12:27 AM by dlb92

[larryh]

Yes.  The wind power option costs $0.40 / 100 kWh.  This is in addition to the normal electric rate.  So it will cost me about $2.80 more per month.

[HotLap]

So larryh, for $2.80 more per month, you are helping your power company to bring on-line more wind powered (ie clean) generation and possibly retire dirty coal fired plants in the future...that's a great tradeoff, not sure if SoCal Edison has this type of program or not but I will check it out...

[larryh]

Actually, I average about 400 kWh a month, so it is $1.60 extra per month for electricity generated by wind power. 

[Mikesan]

I did it to kick OPEC and other USA hating countries in the nuts.  Solar panels were installed a couple weeks ago and still need the electricians to come out and wire them up.  Thinking about my later years when I'll have no mortgage, no electric bill, and if careful, very little gas to buy.  Have to admit that the rebates and tax credits made the energi cheaper than a regular hybrid.  That made a huge difference as well.