Energi vs Volt? Advice Pls

[captmable]

Howdy All,

 

Ok, I know you all are a bit biased but I would love to hear your comments anyway.  ;-)

 

I am looking for a plug-in vehicle for my daily commute to work... approx. 75 total trip.  I cannot plug in at work so only overnight at home.  Weekend trips would be mostly local < 20 mi.

 

I currently own a F150 XTR.  I love my truck but the fuel cost for the V8 plus a 137 litre tank is killing me.  

 

My brother owns a Chevy Volt and now that I have decided to go EV he is doing his best to sell the benefits of the Volt over the Fusion.  He rarely every pumps gas and it does have quite a bit more EV miles.  I know the Volt is different... EREV vs Plugin Hybrid.  But... the Fusion looks bad ass, bigger and appears to be comfortable.  I have yet to drive one because the dealers in Canada are still waiting :-(.

 

I need an EV vehicle that can do 150-200 miles on a charge that isn't Tesla $$.  Probably another 4-5 years away for that.

 

Thanks in advance for your advice pros and cons.  There is a lot of happy Volt owners out there but I want to stick with Ford.

 

BTW... what's the real MPG?  Ford has taken a lot of heat for sandbagging the stats.

 

Chris

 

[Russael]

Salutations,

 

Yeah, we are a bit biased toward the Ford, but I try to keep an open mind.

 

Things I like about the Volt:

 

Greater battery range

Battery was built in more appropriate places, saving some trunk space

All electric drivetrain (there's a + and - with this for me)

Unique, non retrofitted vehicle.  The design is smart.

 

Things I don't care for:

 

Gasoline economy is less than the Fusion

Smaller vehicle... I personally wanted something a bit larger.

All electric drive train.  If the electric motor fails, you're dead in the water.  The fusion's eCVT uses both motor and engine to send power to the wheels.  More efficient that way.

I don't care for it's appearance.  Every chevy looks the same from the front.  Ford is sort of going that way now too though.

 

Fusion pluses:

 

Gasoline economy is greater than that of the Volt.

Car is bigger.

LOVE the style

Electric range works for my personal commute (12 miles round trip to work and back)

 

Fusion negatives:

 

The Fusion Energi design was literally an afterthought.  Saw the video as to how it was 'born'.  Someone shoved a cardboard box in the trunk and went, "EUREKA!"

Very limted trunk space.

Battery range could've been greater

 

In all, I think both cars are amazing.  The Volt works on the same principal as that of a railway locomotive.  However, that design has been proven to not be all that efficient, which is why the Fusion gets better gasoline numbers.  But it makes up for it with the bigger battery (and bigger tax credit too).  The all electric powertrain is customizable (sport mode, etc).  It's like driving a video game.  I've never driven one, but have sat in one at auto shows.  I don't care for the styling, both interior and exterior.  I do not like GM seats.  I had to rent a car for a business trip and they gave me a Cruze... and those seats were AWFUL.

 

The Fusion I got A-Plan on, so that was a huge factor in my decision.  I could not get any kind of employee discount on the Focus Electric.  They consider that a specialty vehicle... and I don't like the front styling of it.  The Fusion had me at the first picture I saw of it.  Stying is a home run and I LOVE it.  I'm happy that Ford entered the PHEV market finally.  I can barely wait for my car to be delivered.  Been a long time coming. :)

[meyersnole]

You might want to check out this thread.. a lot of us have weighed in on this one already:  http://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/640-chevy-volt-compared-to-fusion-energi/?p=2127

[rtshinn]

Volt may be better since you need more range. You won't be overbuying battery capacity with the  75 mile round trip.

[pluggedin]

Well, you have some pretty good help here so far but let me add a couple things.

 

I never considered the volt because of its limited all electric range and the Fusion does not have that problem because it is also a hybrid. However, the Fusion all electric range is meager at best and I would bet the 21 mile range will be improved upon in 2014 and beyond.

 

The Fusion Titanium, which I own and drive, is one of the most comfortable and pleasurable cars I have ever driven. It is reasonably roomy, the options are more than ample (I hear they will even have cooled front seats in 2014) and the seats seem to wrap around and hug you when you sit in them.

 

At 75 miles for your trips, you are right on the cusp of the Fusion not being right for you. I have done several 80 mile round trips and averaged about 46 mpg, using the 21 mile battery range and hybrid mode. Since I have not driven over 100 miles in one trip yet I can only guess that your fuel economy will drop to around 37-41 mpg, depending on your terrain, driving habits and whether your are using the AC or not. All of my figures, that I mentioned, are with the AC on.

 

Your local trips of 21 miles or less will result in great mpge's of anywhere from 100 to 160.1 mpge (160.1 is the highest I have achieved so far, with the AC off) and that is where the Fusion shines.

 

Good luck with your decision captmable.

[rtshinn]

"...I never considered the volt because of its limited all electric range and the Fusion does not have that problem because it is also a hybrid.".

 

The Volt has almost twice the EV range as the Fusion Energi and is also a Hybrid, like the Fusion Energi.

 

Well, you have some pretty good help here so far but let me add a couple things.

 

I never considered the volt because of its limited all electric range and the Fusion does not have that problem because it is also a hybrid. However, the Fusion all electric range is meager at best and I would bet the 21 mile range will be improved upon in 2014 and beyond.

 

The Fusion Titanium, which I own and drive, is one of the most comfortable and pleasurable cars I have ever driven. It is reasonably roomy, the options are more than ample (I hear they will even have cooled front seats in 2014) and the seats seem to wrap around and hug you when you sit in them.

 

At 75 miles for your trips, you are right on the cusp of the Fusion not being right for you. I have done several 80 mile round trips and averaged about 46 mpg, using the 21 mile battery range and hybrid mode. Since I have not driven over 100 miles in one trip yet I can only guess that your fuel economy will drop to around 37-41 mpg, depending on your terrain, driving habits and whether your are using the AC or not. All of my figures, that I mentioned, are with the AC on.

 

Your local trips of 21 miles or less will result in great mpge's of anywhere from 100 to 160.1 mpge (160.1 is the highest I have achieved so far, with the AC off) and that is where the Fusion shines.

 

Good luck with your decision captmable.

[Volt4me]

I don't mean to hijack this forum, I am the Volt driving brother in-law.

Ones decision for switching to an electric or electric with extended range will vary wildly depending on your everyday usage.

 

I thought I'd clarify a couple of points I noticed above.

 

The Volt also acts a a hybrid once the battery is depleted, I also don't worry when I drive past battery range.

 

When gas is being used, the Volts computer will blend battery propulsion and propulsion straight from the gasoline engine to the wheels when there is a fuel economy advantage. This is not often, and would usually happen at higher speeds & up a hill. So the Volt can actually push the car without using the electric motor in an emergency.

 

I often have to carry paper boxes for work, I can easily fit 6 50lb boxes in the back, more if I fold the seats down.

 

My after work commutes sometimes take me 45 miles round trip to go play squash, If I stay off the freeway, I don't use any gas.

 

If I want/need to pass someone doing 75mph on the freeway, I can zip by them quite quickly while only using electric (up 100mph).

 

I drive between 1000 - 1200 miles most months and usually get 1000+ mpg (5$ gas +$40 electric) in a common month.

I understand that my being able to charge at work skews the electric driving in my favour and not everyone can / will see these numbers.

 

If an erev suv or maybe the rav4 electric suv were available to buy, I would not be driving a Volt. As a beggar of electric vehicles, I at this point don't have the luxury of being choosy. We are a two car family, so an all electric is not out of the question for us.

[captmable]

Thanks everyone for their comments (esp. my Volt loving brother-in-law who should be a car salesman :-)),

 

Obviously, the choices are very few which make the decision that much harder.

 

At the end of the day, this vehicle will be used for daily long commutes.  Since I am currently driving (and loving) my F150, no matter what I expect to achieve significant fuel savings.

 

I am looking for the unique balance of fuel savings, cool technology, comfort and convenience.  Not to mention it needs to look cool too.  If the Tesla Model S was $40k cheaper there would be no discussion. 

 

I have also come to the conclusion that my perfect EV is not available yet so this is a 3-4 yr transition car.  

 

Planning to test drive a Volt and a Fusion Hybrid today (no Energi's yet in Canada) so I will let y'all know who it goes.

 

Capt

 

 

 

 

 

[Volt4me]

One more point if it were just numbers

 

75 mile trip Volt 38 electric - 37 gas =1 gallon used (if you don't need heat or ac and not freeway 40 - 45 electric)

 

vs.

 

20 electric - 55 on gas . Only a guess 1.5 gal used.

 

I'm guessing the Volt will take an extra 50 to 75 cents more in electricity to recharge it.

[Russael]

When gas is being used, the Volts computer will blend battery propulsion and propulsion straight from the gasoline engine to the wheels when there is a fuel economy advantage. This is not often, and would usually happen at higher speeds & up a hill. So the Volt can actually push the car without using the electric motor in an emergency.

 

I don't see how that is physically possible since the gasoline engine turns a generator and is not directly connected to the wheels.  That was something that was always hyped on with the Volt, and why I compared it to a railway locomotive (diesel engine turns generator which in turn provides power to the traction motors).  Unless there was a design change that I'm not aware of, which is always possible.

 

The fusion has an eCVT in it (and it too does have a single point of failure).  There's 2 electric motors that work together to provide gearless driving.  The Prius uses the same technology.  If the center motor dies, then the car is limited to 20 miles electric (may be enough to get it to a dealership on a full charge, and since the main traction motor is tied to the outside gear).  Here's a link on how the tranny works.  Took me a while to wrap my head around it.  http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

[Volt4me]

When it was initially stated  (about 2 or so years ago) that the Volt ice could drive the wheels directly, Chevy took a lot of heat from the purists that wanted a pure electric drive, as this is what Chevrolet originally promised.

Tests showed that in some circumstances, it was more efficient to power the wheels directly. Chevy decided to go with efficiency over a pure electric drive.

Keep in mind, this is only when the ice is running, and only in certain conditions. For me, if the ice is running, I want the best fuel economy possible, so i'm ok with it.

 

If you dig into the gm-volt.com blog site, I'm sure it can be found somewhere, or just ask, there are some very tech savvy members regarding all things Volt over there.

 

I may be jumping to conclusions about powering the wheels in an emergency, I just know the ice can directly drive the wheels.

[jeff_h]

One more point if it were just numbers

 

75 mile trip Volt 38 electric - 37 gas =1 gallon used (if you don't need heat or ac and not freeway 40 - 45 electric)

 

If you were on a trip of 100 or 200 miles and use up the HVB and are then on hybrid only (or does Volt go all gas after HVB is done?) -- what is the MPG that the ICE gets on the remainder of the trip? 37 for as long as the remainder of the trip?

[pluggedin]

Planning to test drive a Volt and a Fusion Hybrid today (no Energi's yet in Canada) so I will let y'all know who it goes.

 

Capt

I just took a friend of mine for a drive in my car while in EV Now. His comment was that the car was WAY more impressive than he had imagined and raved about how comfortable the seats are...also my first impression. I'm going to be interested in your review once you test drive the two cars. The Fusion hybrid should be very similar to the Energi in most respects...especially if it is a Titanium or SEL.

 

I had blinders on when I decided to buy the Energi and obviously did not research the Volt at all. Apparently the Volt IS a hybrid and I have enjoyed the discussion on this thread, so far.

[Volt4me]

If you were on a trip of 100 or 200 miles and use up the HVB and are then on hybrid only (or does Volt go all gas after HVB is done?) -- what is the MPG that the ICE gets on the remainder of the trip? 37 for as long as the remainder of the trip?

once the ice comes on, it works like a hybrid and the epa sticker says 37mpg (i think). So yes, when the ice kicks in, you can expect 37mpg from that point on. I let "voltstats.net"(cloverdale volt)  start tracking my mileage in early January. In February I had a 90ish mile drive where the ice actually had time to warm up and run a while. For the month, the car averaged 39 mpg. On days when I use the ice for the last 1 -3 miles of my drive, the mpg is in the mid 20's as the engine is not very efficient when cold, but that's the same with all cars.

My lifetime mpg is only around 300 mpg thanks to a 800 mile round trip to Oregon. I did not track my mileage for that trip, but I was able to charge at the hotels I stayed and used almost no gas for the week we were there. A guess would be 75 - 85 mpg. average for that trip.

I filled up & topped up a few times on that trip in December. $71.00 of gas bought. It's the only time i've bought gas in the 7 months of owning the car. Arrived back home in Vancouver with 1/4 tank. I have not bought gas this year, but I need to soon.

[Russael]

It's just awesome when you can say you go 'months' in between trips to the gas station (for gas at least). :)  I'll be joining the club sometime in very late May/early June.

 

I can spend 200 dollars in gas on my truck when I take it on my yearly road trip (somewhere around 1,000 miles).  With my car, I refuel maybe once every 2 - 3 weeks since I don't go anywhere except to work or to visit the parent, but it only gets like 22-24mpg city.  It's 'ok' but I wanted something new, ELECTRIC, efficient, and I like the idea of less emissions.

 

In all honesty, would I drive a Volt?  Absolutely.  The dealbreaker for me would be the comfort of the seats.  Sitting in one for 3 minutes doesn't count.  But I feel the Fusion has it beat when it comes to styling and comfort.  It's also kind of sneaky to drive an Energi around and the only difference between all the other models is the badge and the power port in the fender... most things people don't notice.  I do, since I look for it whenever I see a Fusion (there's a hybrid one around somewhere... saw it a couple times).  Seen 2 or 3 different Volts around here too.

 

We're all in this to go green.  I may only make a tiny dent in the fight against air pollution, but pretty much everybody here on the forum can say they've reduced their carbon footprint.  Lord knows China needs all the help they can get. ;)

[Volt4me]

 

 

We're all in this to go green.  I may only make a tiny dent in the fight against air pollution, but pretty much everybody here on the forum can say they've reduced their carbon footprint.  Lord knows China needs all the help they can get. ;)

Agreed Agreed Agreed! I just wish there were more choices. The right car for me would be the rav4 electric & the wife the Volt., but I can't buy it here. I have heard the Ford is more comfortable, and I'm not going to win in the looks department with the Volt, not that it looks bad. There are times (often) that I need to pack a lot of stuff into the back of my poor little Volt for work. Delivering 12 paper boxes full of books to a client is surprisingly easy with the seats folded down. And yes, you just don't get tired of saying "I have not bought any gas this year".

[jsamp]

Capt,

 

You are right in the sweet spot for a Volt from a commute cost standpoint.  The two cars are virtually the same cost/mile below 20 miles.  From 20-40 miles, the Volt is gaining because it is still using no gas whereas the Energi has started using fuel.  After 40 miles, the Energi starts to catch back up due to better fuel efficiency.  Somewhere around 100 miles, the two are back to even again and the Energi is cheaper from then on.  So your 75 mile commute favors the Volt.

 

Obviously there are more reasons to buy a certain car than just cost per round trip.  The price of the 2 is nearly identical, depending on what trim and options you get.  I don't know if Canada or BC or Vancouver offer any rebates for Plug-in vehicles, but that skews the price in the US in favor of the Volt by several thousand $$.

 

The rest of the arguments are going to be different for each person: styling, seat comfort, brand preference, etc.

 

I'm betting that it will be more than 3-4 years for your transition though.  The auto world makes great promises, but rarely keeps them.

 

Let us know how it goes.

[Energized]

As mentioned in the other thread, the Fusion is a larger class of car than the Volt. 

 

The Volt is based on the Cruze, a Focus sized vehicle.  The more appropriate comparison is between the C-Max NRG and the Volt. 

 

Even when compared to vehicles in it's class, the Volt is a small car inside.  The Volt is almost like a Fiesta sized vehicle when it comes to interior roominess.  The Volt has only 4 seats.

 

The Volt runs on Premium fuel and is less fuel efficient than the larger Fusion (37 Volt vs 43 Fusion combined).  Even with lower mpgs, the Volt has a significantly smaller gas tank, 9.3 gallons of Premium compared to 14 gallons of Regular fuel.  The total range of the Volt is obviously much less.

 

The Volt gets surprisingly poor mileage in the City, only 35 mpg.  Most hybrids get better mileage in the City than on the highway.  The Volt does not which supports the position that the Volt is not a very efficient while in hybrid mode.

 

For comparison purposes, the Volt gets 35 mpgs using Premium fuel in a smaller, 4 seat car, vs 43 mpg using Regular fuel in the larger 5 seater Fusion NRG. 

 

For people whose driving regularly takes them beyond the battery range, the Volt is not an efficient method of transportation in comparison to many other cars.  It's not efficient in it's use of fuel, not efficient in it's use of interior space, and it's not efficient in terms of the added cost of Premium fuel.

[jeff_h]

once the ice comes on, it works like a hybrid and the epa sticker says 37mpg (i think). So yes, when the ice kicks in, you can expect 37mpg from that point on. I let "voltstats.net"(cloverdale volt)  start tracking my mileage in early January. In February I had a 90ish mile drive where the ice actually had time to warm up and run a while. For the month, the car averaged 39 mpg. On days when I use the ice for the last 1 -3 miles of my drive, the mpg is in the mid 20's as the engine is not very efficient when cold, but that's the same with all cars.

My lifetime mpg is only around 300 mpg thanks to a 800 mile round trip to Oregon. I did not track my mileage for that trip, but I was able to charge at the hotels I stayed and used almost no gas for the week we were there. A guess would be 75 - 85 mpg. average for that trip.

I filled up & topped up a few times on that trip in December. $71.00 of gas bought. It's the only time i've bought gas in the 7 months of owning the car. Arrived back home in Vancouver with 1/4 tank. I have not bought gas this year, but I need to soon.

 

Thanks for the feedback, and I love the phrase "My lifetime mpg is only around 300 mpg"... the Volt is a bit small for us, wife downsizing from an SUV to a Fusion Energi is going to be trimming down on space enough as is... but we agreed that spending $100 per week for her to take routine trips around town to work/school/etc is for the birds.

[meyersnole]

I actually thought the Volt drove very nicely. Overall and outstanding car that I may have bought if I fit in it better. At 6' I struggled to get comfortable. Had it been a little bigger I would have purchased it over the Fusion for the battery range alone. The Volt really does have a lot going for it, I was just more comfortable in the Fusion. I also think the Fusion has many more amenities then the Volt. The 41 mile electric range would be sweet though. 

 

I really wonder what the Cadillac ELR is going be like. Here is an article about 6 new electric / plugins for 2014. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083492_six-new-plug-in-electric-cars-coming-for-2014

 

Given how almost all of the Fusion energi's were bought in the Titanium trim, wonder if Ford should have sold the energi as a Lincoln?  I know I would have looked at it.

[Russael]

Lincoln has the Hybrid MKZ... and I think the price is nuts.  Starts at just shy of 36k when the Fusion Hybrid starts at 27 (or 32 for the Titanium).  Would you spent 50k for a Lincoln MKZ Energi?  I know there may be a market for it, but people are already balking at the price of the Fusion Energi vehicles.

[pluggedin]

I actually thought the Volt drove very nicely. Overall and outstanding car that I may have bought if I fit in it better. At 6' I struggled to get comfortable. Had it been a little bigger I would have purchased it over the Fusion for the battery range alone. The Volt really does have a lot going for it, I was just more comfortable in the Fusion. I also think the Fusion has many more amenities then the Volt. The 41 mile electric range would be sweet though. 

 

I really wonder what the Cadillac ELR is going be like. Here is an article about 6 new electric / plugins for 2014. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083492_six-new-plug-in-electric-cars-coming-for-2014

 

Given how almost all of the Fusion energi's were bought in the Titanium trim, wonder if Ford should have sold the energi as a Lincoln?  I know I would have looked at it.

We think a lot alike. I even sent Ford a request last year to see the 2013 MKZ would come in a plug-in model. However, I think the Fusion looks better, even if it is smaller.

 

If I had bought a hybrid only though, I would have bought the MKZ.

[meyersnole]

Lincoln has the Hybrid MKZ... and I think the price is nuts.  Starts at just shy of 36k when the Fusion Hybrid starts at 27 (or 32 for the Titanium).  Would you spent 50k for a Lincoln MKZ Energi?  I know there may be a market for it, but people are already balking at the price of the Fusion Energi vehicles.

 

You can not compare a base Fusion hybrid to a base MKZ. Compare them with similar equipment and you will find you are paying a few thousand for the name plate, but you are also getting higher quality materials and items that are not available on the Ford.

 

The list on my Fusion was over $45, would I spend $5K more on a MKZ?  Maybe.

[Russael]

Granted... the Lincoln is the 'top of the line' of the Ford lineup... plus it is it's own vehicle.  I did mention the Hybrid Titanium which is 4k less than the MKZ (comparing base to base).  And yeah, the Lincoln has upgraded materials, etc.  I'd LOVE to have that 700 watt THX stereo system in the Fusion Energi. :)  And most of the options cost more with the Lincoln.

 

My problem with the Lincoln?  I hate the front.  I do not like that grille at all.  But I dig those 19" wheels that are an option for it.

 

I went through the Lincoln MKZ builder for the hybrid, and with the top tier accessory package along with white platinum and tech package and moonroof... the thing costs about the same as Fusion Titanium Energi with everything at just over 46k.  I would guestimate 50 to 55k for an Energi model of that car.

[captmable]

Howdy,

 

Nice to see all the discussion.  So here's my thoughts after driving a 2013 Volt and a 2013 Fusion Hybrid.  Again, the Energi's are a 2-3 months away up here so I figured it would be a similar ride.

 

Volt:  I was impressed to say the least!  Acceleration very smooth, lots of jump and the ride quality was much better than I had hoped.  Fit and finish was also excellent, modern style.  Chevy did a great job with this car for sure.  

 

Pros:  

 

- EREV.  This tech is the best in my opinion but need more range.

- EV Range.  Best available for $40k.

- Hatchback gives you more pace.

- Lower center of gravity (although I rubbed that front deflector 4 times on the test drive)

- Interior styling was cool.

- Head room was better than expected.

 

Cons:  

 

- Space.  I felt a bit cramped

- Smallish car.  From an F150 this would be a tough transition.  Sometimes my total commute is 3hrs on the worst day (ie. today!)... gotta love Vancouver traffic.

- No moonroof option??

- Sight lines are not great front and rear.

- Rear seat room.  I pity those who are forced to sit back there.  But heck a Mustang is far worse.

- 4 seater

- Volt4Me has one!  Just kidding but I bet he's probably thinking that.  LOL

- For me I have never been a Chevy guy... but this car could easily make me switch.

 

Fusion:  I have to say the first time I saw the this redesigned car I was impressed.  They really did a good job making it look awesome with aggressive refinement.  I drove a Titanium which is the trim for me.  The interior reminded me of Audi... the cabin was very spacious and the seating position was virtually perfect.  Sight lines are excellent and you get the feel you are driving a much bigger vehicle.  Very typical of Ford in my opinion.  This car drove superb however much heavier feel to the Volt.

 

Pros:

 

- Interior and Exterior Styling.  Badass outside and exceptional inside.

- Space.  larger car

- Rear seats... a few inches more room but it makes a big difference.  Middle seat is not great... make sure only short people sit there :-)

- Drive quality is exceptional.  A bit faster off the mark than the Volt.

- Very quiet interior.  I could hardly hear anything on the outside even while driving through a construction zone. 

- VERY comfortable seating position.  Small details like leather arm rests vs. hard plastic makes a difference.

- Tons of features and technology.  

- Moonroof... a must for me!

 

Cons:

 

- EV Range.

- Fuel cost vs the Volt.  

- Drives a bit heavy.

- Trunk space.  It's pretty small and even smaller with the Energi.

- Cost.  It looks like it will cost $3-5k more than a fully equipment Volt.

- No interior color choices.

- Canada ain't got any!!!  Boo-urns.

 

Summary:

 

I am now convinced that the Fusion is for me based on the comfort and convenience alone.  Yes I can save $10 per month with the Volt but there is always a price to pay for comfort... my drive is far too long to sacrifice it.  Overall they are similar in prize, close enough for me anyway.  The goal was to find a car that would save me a ton of fuel, be comfortable, cutting edge technology, and looks great all for a reasonable price. 

 

I am still curious to see an Energi in person so I convinced the family to take a drive to Seattle this weekend then I'll make a final decision.  It's going to be tough to buy a an Energi for any discounted price up here.  However 0% Interest for 48mo is... interesting!  

 

Capt