Thinking about buying a used 2019 Energi!

[onlyturbo]

Hi all,

 

I currently have a 2013 Prius level 3.  It is a nice car, but a little basic and the handling is not that great, it may be better now after I installed a rear sway bar...need to drive it for a bit to verify this.

 

We need to buy a car for my daughter in college, so we were thinking about giving her the Prius, and buying myself a new car.  I commute in Long Island New York, so I need a clean pass car (50 miles round trip).  I was originally thinking about the 2019 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, but the price is still too high.  Then I was considering a Tesla Model 3, used or new, but then again the price is also more than I wanted to spend.  I can afford either one, but financially just does not make sense to justify the extra monthly payments cost, this is where the Fusion Energi come into play!

 

I always liked the way the Ford Fusion looked, and with lots of research I can see why it is very popular with many people.  I was originally thinking about getting a 2015, 16 or 17, my must have package is the collision avoidance with the adaptive cruise control, this will help me during my heavy traffic commute.  So for 2015-2018 either the platinum that comes standard with this package, or a titanium with the option.  But then I started to see that used 2019 go for just under $20k, which is incredible for a practically brand new car that was listed at $36k.  I just do not understand why such a drastic drop in price?

 

I would love to hear from current or previous owners who can chime in and voice there experience with the car, and any recommendation.  How reliable is this model, should I get an extended warranty?  I plan on most likely keeping the car for few good years, hopefully minimum of 5 years.

 

Thank you for your help!

 

 

[jsamp]

<$20k is a great deal.  New they got $4500 fed rebate plus any NY state and local/power rebates, so that dropped the effective price below $30k, but still that is a lot of depreciation for one year. 

 

The only negative of the 2019's that I've heard is the noisy fan behind the infotainment system.  That is mostly compared to the previous years, not to a Prius.  Maybe it isn't an issue for you.

 

The '19 would be better for your commute because of the increased battery capacity over an '18 or older.  Depending on if you can charge at work, you'll still likely do some of your drive on gas (especially in winter), but not as much as an older version.    

 

I bought a '15 used, and didn't get the extended warranty and was fine, but one electronic glitch and you could be in for hundreds of $$ for repairs.  You may want to consider it.

[onlyturbo]

1 hour ago, jsamp said:

<$20k is a great deal.  New they got $4500 fed rebate plus any NY state and local/power rebates, so that dropped the effective price below $30k, but still that is a lot of depreciation for one year. 

 

The only negative of the 2019's that I've heard is the noisy fan behind the infotainment system.  That is mostly compared to the previous years, not to a Prius.  Maybe it isn't an issue for you.

 

The '19 would be better for your commute because of the increased battery capacity over an '18 or older.  Depending on if you can charge at work, you'll still likely do some of your drive on gas (especially in winter), but not as much as an older version.    

 

I bought a '15 used, and didn't get the extended warranty and was fine, but one electronic glitch and you could be in for hundreds of $$ for repairs.  You may want to consider it.

 

Thank you for the reply !

 

Unfortunately I cannot charge at work...The fan I need to see, maybe I can go to a local dealer and check it out.  Thanks!

[jj2me]

The 15K miles I've put on my 2017 have been faultless (it had 10K miles on it when I bought it), if you exclude a fault I induced because of my OBDII app temporarily screwing up the cars electronics.  This car fits my needs and wants perfectly.  I love it.  Its high-voltage battery can degrade if you don't treat it right.  As long as you are prepared for one or the other (treat it right, or accept some degradation), then at that price for a low-mileage 2019, it's a steal.

 

My dislikes in order of importance to me are no liquid cooling of the HVB, electric emergency brake rather than cable,  no spare tire, trunk capacity, placement of the EV switch (you can see I'm down to nits now), ...

 

I'd recommend a 2017 or above, because you get Sync 3 in those model years.

 

I bought a Ford full extended warranty.  Usually I self insure except for disasters, but was afraid this one might incur enormous costs.  Note that for used cars, the Ford extended warranty starts on the day it was originally first sold (or maybe delivered to the dealer, I forget).  Even though I bought my 2017 in June of 2017, I lost one year's worth of coverage because it was sold to the original owner in June of 2016.

Edited January 5, 2020 at 03:55 AM by jj2me

[onlyturbo]

9 hours ago, jj2me said:

The 15K miles I've put on my 2017 have been faultless (it had 10K miles on it when I bought it), if you exclude a fault I induced because of my OBDII app temporarily screwing up the cars electronics.  This car fits my needs and wants perfectly.  I love it.  Its high-voltage battery can degrade if you don't treat it right.  As long as you are prepared for one or the other (treat it right, or accept some degradation), then at that price for a low-mileage 2019, it's a steal.

 

My dislikes in order of importance to me are no liquid cooling of the HVB, electric emergency brake rather than cable,  no spare tire, trunk capacity, placement of the EV switch (you can see I'm down to nits now), ...

 

I'd recommend a 2017 or above, because you get Sync 3 in those model years.

 

I bought a Ford full extended warranty.  Usually I self insure except for disasters, but was afraid this one might incur enormous costs.  Note that for used cars, the Ford extended warranty starts on the day it was originally first sold (or maybe delivered to the dealer, I forget).  Even though I bought my 2017 in June of 2017, I lost one year's worth of coverage because it was sold to the original owner in June of 2016.

 

Great info thank you!

 

I thought the hybrid system warranty is 8 years or 100k miles?  But I guess this is not going to cover the battery degradation?  Also, can I get an extended warranty later on?

 

I need to learn about the best way to treat the battery.  My commute is 25 miles each way, takes me about 40-50 minutes on average, depending on traffic. In the morning I drive about 5-7 minute local until I get to the highway, and then the last ~5 minutes are also local.  The highway on way in is mostly a non stop and go situation, although you never know 100%.  On the way back home there is usually much more stop and go traffic on the highway.  I need to charge the battery every day, I am guessing I can program the start/stop times to charge the battery, and to what capacity?  I definitely want to treat the battery correctly, what do you recommend I do here?

 

Thanks!

Edited January 5, 2020 at 01:52 PM by onlyturbo

[murphy]

Use EV Later on the highway above 55 mph.  The air drag forces on the car increase with the square of the speed.  You won't get anywhere near the indicated range at 75 mph in EV Only mode.

 

You can't program the capacity to charge the battery to, at least not on my 2013.  An indicated 100% is not 100% of the battery, it's more like 95%.  If you don't charge to 100% you will never charge the 12 volt battery from wall power.  That happens after the car reports that charging is complete.

[Fgolman]

BTW if you're considering buying any used vehicle I'd definitely recommend Carmax. 

 

I had an extremely positive experience with them buying a 2015 FFE in July 2018. We found, in the fall, that the resistance heater wasn't working (who would think of testing that in the summer). After one false go around with one Ford dealer they sent it out to, the second fixed it. Carmax didn't charge me for it even though it was well out of the 30 day acceptance period (they gave me the invoice for reference and it was like $2500).

 

 

[onlyturbo]

19 minutes ago, Fgolman said:

BTW if you're considering buying any used vehicle I'd definitely recommend Carmax. 

 

I had an extremely positive experience with them buying a 2015 FFE in July 2018. We found, in the fall, that the resistance heater wasn't working (who would think of testing that in the summer). After one false go around with one Ford dealer they sent it out to, the second fixed it. Carmax didn't charge me for it even though it was well out of the 30 day acceptance period (they gave me the invoice for reference and it was like $2500).

 

 

 

Wow, very impressive! 

[onlyturbo]

4 hours ago, murphy said:

Use EV Later on the highway above 55 mph.  The air drag forces on the car increase with the square of the speed.  You won't get anywhere near the indicated range at 75 mph in EV Only mode.

 

You can't program the capacity to charge the battery to, at least not on my 2013.  An indicated 100% is not 100% of the battery, it's more like 95%.  If you don't charge to 100% you will never charge the 12 volt battery from wall power.  That happens after the car reports that charging is complete.

 

ok thank you, good to know!

[jsamp]

On 1/5/2020 at 5:03 AM, onlyturbo said:

 

Great info thank you!

 

I thought the hybrid system warranty is 8 years or 100k miles?  But I guess this is not going to cover the battery degradation?  Also, can I get an extended warranty later on?

 

I need to learn about the best way to treat the battery.  My commute is 25 miles each way, takes me about 40-50 minutes on average, depending on traffic. In the morning I drive about 5-7 minute local until I get to the highway, and then the last ~5 minutes are also local.  The highway on way in is mostly a non stop and go situation, although you never know 100%.  On the way back home there is usually much more stop and go traffic on the highway.  I need to charge the battery every day, I am guessing I can program the start/stop times to charge the battery, and to what capacity?  I definitely want to treat the battery correctly, what do you recommend I do here?

 

Thanks!

 

Battery degradation is not covered under the warranty.  As I understand it, you can get an extended warranty as long as you are still under 36k miles.  Mine had 43k and Ford only offered it upon my purchase because it was a CPO.

 

As far as battery, there are many schools of thought on how to treat it.  It really depends on how much degradation you consider acceptable.  There are a few of us with near-new batteries, and we swear by a few things: 

• Charge only when needed and do not leave it at 100% charge for long.
• Avoid multiple full charges per day
• When outside temps get near or above 100F, don't charge or drive on EV.  Use EV later or better yet let it get down to hybrid mode and leave it there (some don't charge all summer).
• Use EV-Later above 55MPH.
• Avoid heavy acceleration when in EV only - use EV later to get onto the freeway.
• Don't use the heater/defrost for extended periods on EV only.  Recommended to use pre-condition while plugged in (240V) or use gas to run the defroster.

The last 3 all boil down to limiting anything that would put heavy drain on the battery.  NMC batteries do best at or below 2C drain rate, which is pretty low on a battery as small as the Energi has.  65MPH on flat ground with no other accessories on is a little over 2C.   2019 and newer Energi's have a higher capacity battery (9.0kWh vs 7.6) so that helps you.

 

You cannot stop charging at any specific % other than to unplug the car.  I only charge to 85-90%, but have to do that by programming it to start charging at 3AM and manually unplugging each morning.  12V battery also charges when you run the engine, so no worries if you unplug before 100%.

 

Hope this helps!

Edited January 9, 2020 at 05:33 AM by jsamp

[16vjohn]

I have a 2013 with 132k miles on it. It still does 18 miles pure EV range, which is only a 10% loss. I charge to 100% and deplete to 0% once, sometimes twice a day. I also do L2 charging whenever possible, I want it to charge quickly in case I need to use the car later after I get home from work. I also use full EV mode on the highway at 70mph. In the summer, this does heat up the battery quite quickly, and it'll take most of the day to cool back down. If the battery gets too warm, the system will automatically force the use of the gas engine. Yes, I favor using EV mode in stop-and-go and in the city, but my goal is to make sure that battery is totally depleted by the time I get home again, to displace gasoline usage as much as possible. 

 

Here's the thing... the battery will degrade no matter what you do. You will have a much better experience with the car and be generally more satisfied if you just let the car do its job and avoid battery paranoia. If you're arriving back home with energy in the battery out of some attempt to "make it last longer", I think you're missing the point. You may as well go with a hybrid or spring for a used Model 3.

 

It should be noted that in many battery studies it's suggest that TIME is as much of a factor in degradation as charge/discharge cycles and heat. You may be using battery-saving techniques only to find that you're still degrading at the average rate. 

 

Drive more, worry less.

 

On another note, that's a great deal for a sync 3 FFE. I think this car is an amazing value for the money, and it fits your bill perfectly. Good luck.

[jsamp]

My 2015 has 77k miles and does 28 miles pure EV per 100% charge (a little less now that it's winter).  That is a 40% INCREASE over the stated range.  That is why comparing range is misleading.  It is better to compare kWh to be more accurate.  But since miles is what has been stated, I'll use that.  I charge to 85-90% each day, and I currently get 23 miles EV range from that charge.  My commute is long and I have to use gas for some of it.  I typically get home with ~1 mile left because there is a long downhill on my way home and I can't use up all the regen before I get home.  So I use ~22 miles of the charge. 

 

What does all that mean?  It means I am getting more miles out of less battery.  How?  By using it less.  That sounds counter intuitive, but the facts bear out my point.  Maybe you got more miles that I did per charge when our cars were new, but by treating mine more carefully over the years, I now get more than you do.  Depending on how long these cars are kept running, I could easily get more EV miles over the life of the car than you do.  More EV miles is the goal isn't it?  Delayed gratification is a funny thing.

 

As for the degradation, at 70k miles when I last checked, I only lost .1kWh per charge.  That's less than 2% degradation.  While it is true batteries will degrade over time, "what you do" does have a large affect on HOW MUCH they degrade, and I am living proof of that.  If what I do is too much worrying to someone else, fine, they don't have to do it.  But to claim my methods don't work is bogus.

 

FWIW, I do drive at 65MPH on EV, but am careful not to accelerate too hard and I use gas when getting up to that speed on an on-ramp.

[16vjohn]

44 minutes ago, jsamp said:

My 2015 has 77k miles and does 28 miles pure EV per 100% charge (a little less now that it's winter).  That is a 40% INCREASE over the stated range.  That is why comparing range is misleading.  It is better to compare kWh to be more accurate.  But since miles is what has been stated, I'll use that.  I charge to 85-90% each day, and I currently get 23 miles EV range from that charge.  My commute is long and I have to use gas for some of it.  I typically get home with ~1 mile left because there is a long downhill on my way home and I can't use up all the regen before I get home.  So I use ~22 miles of the charge. 

 

What does all that mean?  It means I am getting more miles out of less battery.  How?  By using it less.  That sounds counter intuitive, but the facts bear out my point.  Maybe you got more miles that I did per charge when our cars were new, but by treating mine more carefully over the years, I now get more than you do.  Depending on how long these cars are kept running, I could easily get more EV miles over the life of the car than you do.  More EV miles is the goal isn't it?  Delayed gratification is a funny thing.

 

As for the degradation, at 70k miles when I last checked, I only lost .1kWh per charge.  That's less than 2% degradation.  While it is true batteries will degrade over time, "what you do" does have a large affect on HOW MUCH they degrade, and I am living proof of that.  If what I do is too much worrying to someone else, fine, they don't have to do it.  But to claim my methods don't work is bogus.

 

FWIW, I do drive at 65MPH on EV, but am careful not to accelerate too hard and I use gas when getting up to that speed on an on-ramp.

 

If there was any hostility in my tone, I apologize up front. We're all on the same team. I'm certainly not saying you're wrong. What I am saying is that while you can make it last longer, I don't think the return is worth the effort. Now that's purely subjective of course. If you get satisfaction from hypermiling, analyzing battery statistics, beating the averages, and meticulous maintenance, I totally get it. These are VERY nerdy cars and I think you kind of have to be nerdy about it to full understand just why they are so good and why they have a cult following.

 

Perhaps my point is better illustrated in this way. If you've come from a boringly reliable Prius, to then suggest someone has to pay so much attention to battery preservation before they even buy a FFE, sets a certain narrative that highlights the worst part (in my opinion) about this car... Which is the batter capacity. Nobody that has ever owned this car wishes it had a smaller battery. For someone looking at Teslas and Mitsu, and will be repulsed every time the gas engine turns on in your 50-mile commute, I just don't think it's good advice for a perspective buyer to imply that they should effectively defer battery utilization to make it last marginally longer.

 

Lastly, I'm curious to know to just what extent you hypermile. If you're getting 28 miles from ~5.6kWh, you're doing roughly ~200wH/mi, which is more efficient than a RWD Model 3, which has an insanely efficient permanent magnet motor and a much lower drag coefficient. Very impressive.

 

The takeaway from this is undoubtedly subjective like I said before. We're all different, and we're all looking for something different from our cars, and that's ok.

 

For the benefit of data collection, my lifetime EV miles according to the instrument panel is 49,200 miles and FORScan says the estimated HVB capacity at full charge is 6.546kWh

 

[jj2me]

12 hours ago, 16vjohn said:

For the benefit of data collection, my lifetime EV miles according to the instrument panel is 49,200 miles and FORScan says the estimated HVB capacity at full charge is 6.546kWh

 

This matches your mileage reduction estimate of 10%.  7.1 kWh is what PID BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM reads for new (it's minus the 0.5 kWh safety reserve).  7.1 - 6.546 = 0.554 kWh, which rounds to 10% of the 5.6 kWh of plug-in power available to use.

 

That is fantastic battery capacity for 132K miles of uncaring use.  Is there something else you do to care for the battery that you didn't relate?  Or am I being affected by the negative bias here (people tend to report problems with their HVB more than successes)?  Typical reports are of uncaring use with degradation in the range of 4 kWh plug-in remaining.  One report was of mid-3 kWh remaining with mid-20K miles, located in Florida and keeping it plugged into level 2 every night.  The two long-term minimal-degradation successes reported here have been by jsamp, and by bdginmo, who never charges in his hot Missouri summers.

 

What climate are you in?  Anything else you can think of?

 

You're right about it being a nerd car.  I love mine, but when I read angry complaints of unexpected battery degradation, I am reluctant to recommend it to anyone who would use it uncaringly.

Edited January 12, 2020 at 06:33 PM by jj2me

[jsamp]

16 hours ago, 16vjohn said:

 

If there was any hostility in my tone, I apologize up front. We're all on the same team.

 

 

Thank you.  I may have read into your response more than you meant, and got overly defensive.  Sorry to have over-reacted.

 

16 hours ago, 16vjohn said:

 

Lastly, I'm curious to know to just what extent you hypermile. If you're getting 28 miles from ~5.6kWh, you're doing roughly ~200wH/mi, which is more efficient than a RWD Model 3, which has an insanely efficient permanent magnet motor and a much lower drag coefficient. Very impressive.

 

 

While I don't consider myself a hypermiler, I do accelerate like a granny, and stop very gently to try to get as much regen as I can.  Part of my low Wh/mile is the fact that I use gas whenever I have a high load (like accelerating onto the freeway), so technically I'm 'cheating' by using gas to accelerate, but recapturing the deceleration via regen.  But that does not factor into the 28 miles because the test I do is purely a <50mph route that I take 100% on EV every 10,000 miles.  Last time I drove it I had dropped .1kWh (5.4kWh used from 100% to 0%).  I will do it again in a couple months when I get to 80k miles and report back.  I expect another .1kWh loss this time.

Edited January 12, 2020 at 10:13 PM by jsamp

[16vjohn]

5 hours ago, jj2me said:

 

This matches your mileage reduction estimate of 10%.  7.1 kWh is what PID BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM reads for new (it's minus the 0.5 kWh safety reserve).  7.1 - 6.546 = 0.554 kWh, which rounds to 10% of the 5.6 kWh of plug-in power available to use.

 

That is fantastic battery capacity for 132K miles of uncaring use.  Is there something else you do to care for the battery that you didn't relate?  Or am I being affected by the negative bias here (people tend to report problems with their HVB more than successes)?  Typical reports are of uncaring use with degradation in the range of 4 kWh plug-in remaining.  One report was of mid-3 kWh remaining with mid-20K miles, located in Florida and keeping it plugged into level 2 every night.  The two long-term minimal-degradation successes reported here have been by jsamp, and by bdginmo, who never charges in his hot Missouri summers.

 

What climate are you in?  Anything else you can think of?

 

You're right about it being a nerd car.  I love mine, but when I read angry complaints of unexpected battery degradation, I am reluctant to recommend it to anyone who would use it uncaringly.

 

Ok, some full disclosure is needed it sounds like.

 

I wish I knew more about the first 68,000 miles of this car's life with the first owner. If foggy memory serves, I seem to recall having no issue going ~20 to 21 miles in mild weather with no climate control. Perhaps this would imply the car did many more ICE miles than EV miles from mile 1 to 68,000. When I first got the car, I was a Torque Pro user and I could never figure out the PIDs thing. So I have no basis for comparison in how it's degraded while I've owned it and I don't have a lot of data to suggest why the battery is the way that it is. Really, I figured the car would be well-nigh worn out before the battery was a major concern. So like all my other cars, this car is a mule. I load the miles on it like crazy and it lives to serve me. 

 

I believe the car probably started out in California. It's been in Utah since I've owned it. Winters are very cold and summers are very hot. Ambient temperatures From June to August can be well over 90F. When I have to park it in the hot parking lot at work, it soaks up a lot of heat. I no longer charge it at work in the summer because the battery would get so hot that I wouldn't even be able to use pure EV mode on the way home. I charge it in the evenings and deplete it completely on my drive in to work. So, the battery has a chance to cool down during the day right now. At home, it's parked in a garage that's usually much cooler than ambient temperature. Bottom line, this isn't Phoenix, but it does get pretty hot.

 

As far as uncaring treatment, my only intent was to tell a potential new buyer that you shouldn't spend a lot of time worry about battery preservation. Let the car do it's thing and displace as much gasoline as you possibly can. As far as how I treat it, and in addition to my previous comments, I don't necessarily go out of my way to abuse the battery. Of course I don't leave it at 100% for days on end. Of course I pay attention to temperatures and don't needlessly cook the HVB. However, the car lives to serve me and I want to extract as much value out of the expensive hybrid components as quickly as I possibly can. If the goal were money savings, it's hard to argue with the total cost of ownership of a manual transmission Corolla, a 2007-2014 Jetta TDI, or even a duratech Fusion SE. If you're deferring battery utilization to make it last longer, then I hope you have other boxes to check besides pure economics. For me, it absolutely is an economic thing, but also pollution displacement, and pure EV when I want it to be. That, and we all agree the Fusion is a handsome devil and nicely equipped for the money.

 

Lastly, I just sold my Model 3 and decided to start driving this more again and being active in the boards again. It's not my intent to come in here like I own the place. I hope to provide reasonable advice with at least some data or experience to back it up. Look forward to many more years here. It's also nice to know that in a few years I'll be able to get a new FFE (FFPHEV?) for under $15k. ? Cheers.