No lights, no charge, no start, nothing...

[Motosean]

Hi everyone, noob to the forum and to FFE here.

This is my first post so be gentile.

I have what I hope is a dumb question with a simple answer.

 

I bought a used 2016 FFE three months ago. We have been on several cross country trips in it and I absolutely love the car, until this morning. My wife went to go to work and the car was absolutely dark, nothing. No lights, no dome lights, no dash lights no side markers, nothing. She took my truck to work and I plugged it in, as I forgot to last night. No blue charging ring. No red ring, no blue ring, no ring period. The charging cable has the required steady green charging lights, but nothing is working on the car. This is a two ton anchor at this point. I left the charging cable plugged in and went to work on the motorcycle. I hope that is detailed enough for some insight on what I am not doing right to get this awesome car back on the road.

[murphy]

The 12 volt battery, in the trunk, died.  With no 12 volts the HVB is disconnected from the car.

Jump the car using the terminals under the hood.  Almost any 12 volt battery will work.  It only needs about 10 amps.

Look for a flexible red cover, under the hood, directly in front of the driver.  That is +

Standing at the front of the car, in front of the red cover, look toward the back of the car.  There is a bolt sticking up out of the shock absorber tower.  That is -

 

Turn the car on.  The HVB will connect and the DC to DC converter will begin charging the 12 volt battery.

 

Get a new 12 volt battery.

[Ripper1]

What he said

[pianewman]

2017 Energi, 26k miles. Stored unplugged for 6 weeks, no batterytender connected.

 

Totally dead. Connected 4amp charger to points under the hood, after 2 hours, it's still drawing 4 amps.

 

Car was manufactured October, 2016. I'm thinking I should insist on replacement, since it's almost 3 years old, in DFW heat. Still under "certified" warranty, battery should be warranted if necessary.

 

Is there an AGM battery that is recommended? I'd prefer that to the older lead/acid type battery, if there's one that fits.

 

Thanks! 

[murphy]

You are not going to charge a dead battery with 4 amps in 10 hours let alone 2 hours.  4 amps x 2 hours = 8 AH.  Try to turn the car on with the battery charger connected.  If it comes on disconnect the battery charger and wait for the DC to DC converter to charger the battery from the HVB.  The car must stay on for this to work.

 

I have an AGM in mine.  I am not aware of any that fit.  I removed the battery tray and cut the end off of it to get one to fit.  I'm on my second AGM battery.  The first started getting weak after 6 years.

[rbort]

If you're going to leave the car sit for that long, get a 2nd deep cycle battery and plug it into the cigarette lighter that doesn't turn off if you have one (in my Cmax its the one in the rear), or put a trickle charger on your battery.

 

Don't expect the battery to be warrantied out, you killed it yourself by leaving the car for 6 weeks.  There is always some draw on the battery even while off, and no battery even a new one is going to not die after 6 weeks.  You can recharge a dead battery, but you lose some life by having killed it.

 

-=>Raja.

[pianewman]

I didn't expect it to fully charge in 2 hours. I did expect the charge rate to drop a bit more rapidly.

 

I disconnected the 4A charger after 2 hours, was able to start and drive the car. Start/stop several times, so the 12V battery is holding a charge, for the time being. I know, after having it fully discharged, that its lifespan is now limited.

 

rbort: "Don't expect the battery to be warrantied out, you killed it yourself by leaving the car for 6 weeks." Are you serious? I have a 3-year-old car, and I can't leave it for 6 weeks and expect it to start? If this is, in fact, the case, owners should be made aware of this up front.. 

 

I'm very aware of the power hogs of modern cars. I'm a VW/Audi refugee, having owned them for for 35 years. I lived through the "Clean Diesel" debacle, and learned that modern VWs diesels would kill a battery in 3 years, but there was never any issue letting them sit for 6 weeks.

 

I'm annoyed with myself, because I happen to own TWO BatteryTenders, and use them periodically to keep all my 12V batteries healthy. I deliberately did NOT leave the car plugged in to the BatteryTender, as I felt the risk of an electric storm was too great. Living in DFW heat, I know the risks. I've also seen, at several different Ford dealerships, the map showing the expected life expectancy of OEM lead/acid batteries, regionally based. 

 

Murphy: Which AGM did you install in your Energi? The only one I've found is odyssey-battery-48-720t-group-size-48-723-cca at AutoZone.

[rbort]

#1 I would tend to think that most cars will not last 6 weeks without being started, their 12v batteries could very well die in that time frame, especially if they are not new and the capacity is not as big as it used to be.

#2 The Cmax and Fusion have smaller 12v batteries (read less capacity) because there is no requirement to crank the engine, only to close the contacts to power up the HVB to start the car.

#3 If you're worried about a storm, and personally I don't like to leave chargers going while I'm not home, then just do what I do.  I have two 100 amp deep cycle 12v batteries.  All you need to do it jump it to your car and now you have tripled your capacity to say the least.  I've done this on my Cmax and its been able to last just about 1 month unused while I was away.  I use the other deep cycle to jump my wife's car.  I made cigarette lighter plug jumpers with alligator clips on the battery side so its easy.  Better than leaving a charger running for 1 month, and when I got home I just recharge the deep cycle battery and put it away.

#4 Batteries can last alot more than 3 years, for me about 10 years depending on what you're doing.  Capacity goes down slowly over time, and by the 10th year it gets to the point where if you leave the headlights on for 5 minutes the car won't start any more.  However if you don't and drive the car to work daily and it starts fairly quickly when you crank it, then sure you can go 10 years.  Depends on your car, how much you drive it, and how easily it starts.  Once the capacity is less than desired, you replace the battery.

#5 Your battery should still work, though it most likely too a capacity hit from being discharged to zero.  You can still use it, and go along as usual until it can't last between uses then you need to replace it.

#6 If you install a larger battery, it should be able to sit longer without the car being used.  Its the same idea as jumping the stock battery while away.

 

Hope this helps,

 

-=>Raja.

Edited August 21, 2019 at 03:31 AM by rbort

[pianewman]

Thank you, it's all very helpful. Unbelievably fussy  ;) but helpful. 

 

I will seek out a larger AGM battery, and hopefully won't have to fuss so much!

 

Thanks again.

[murphy]

Thank you, it's all very helpful. Unbelievably fussy  ;) but helpful. 

 

I will seek out a larger AGM battery, and hopefully won't have to fuss so much!

 

Thanks again.

I used this one.

 

Optima Batteries 8040-218 D35 YellowTop Dual Purpose Battery

[pianewman]

Continuing the saga: Overnight, plugged in the BatteryTenderPlus, 1.25A. 10hours, red light still showed charging (hasn't reached 80%)

 

Unplugged the charger for 45 minutes. When I plugged it back in, it wouldn't charge. No lights. (pigtail is hardwired to the battery terminals, so they didn't move).

 

Exterior trunk button would not work. I thought, the battery must be totally dead.

 

Walked around, touched the door handle, all interior lights came on, door opened normally. Interior trunk button worked...AND...THE CHARGER RED LIGHT WAS BACK ON, showing it was charging again.

 

Is this an anomaly caused by the weakened 12V battery? My VAG experience is with a weakened battery, there are continual electrical gremlins, codes being thrown, etc.

 

(FYI: 2013 Ford CMax, wasn't started for 4 weeks, with no follow-up issues. I guess I didn't kill that one!  :)  :)  :) )

 

rbort: "#4 Batteries can last a lot more than 3 years, for me about 10 years depending on what you're doing." I agree, you're in a cool/cold climate. I would add, ambient temps play a significant role. The Ford map I referred to, that showed regional battery lifespans, shows TEXAS (and a swath across the entire south) battery expectancy to be right at 3 years.  My son's CMax failed at 3 years, and since it's only 1 year old, is probably why the 4 weeks w/o starting didn't harm it. 

 

I'm now talking to myself, with circuitous questions, when the bottom line is: 3 years, replace the battery. My Ford service advisor says it's covered, IF THEY CAN PROVE that it doesn't hold a charge.

Edited August 21, 2019 at 01:27 PM by pianewman

[murphy]

Modern battery chargers must see 6 or 12 volts before they will flow any current.  This was done to protect against accidentally shorting the clips together.

 

There are lots of microprocessors in an Energi that are never turned off.  This is not an old time car where it was really off when the key wasn't in it.

 

Opening the app on a smartphone wakes the car up and it draws over 10 amps from the battery. 

 

I don't let mine go more than a week without connecting a 12 volt battery charger to it.

[pianewman]

Murphy: So, you're saying the battery is low enough (although the car runs w/o issues) that the 1.25A Battery Tender isn't even charging? Interesting. I guess the illusion of a "healthy" 12V battery is this: The HVB/ICE will operate without a fully charged 12V battery, since it's only running low-drain electronics. Is that your understanding?

 

I'll put the 4A charger on it, see what it shows. FYI, I drove 25 miles after the dead battery incident, so the battery did receive some charging.

[murphy]

Murphy: So, you're saying the battery is low enough (although the car runs w/o issues) that the 1.25A Battery Tender isn't even charging? Interesting. I guess the illusion of a "healthy" 12V battery is this: The HVB/ICE will operate without a fully charged 12V battery, since it's only running low-drain electronics. Is that your understanding?

 

I'll put the 4A charger on it, see what it shows. FYI, I drove 25 miles after the dead battery incident, so the battery did receive some charging.

The ONLY way to test a wet cell lead acid battery is to put a 100 amp or more load on it and measure the voltage.  If it drops below 10 volts, the battery is bad.

 

As long as the battery will come up to 12 volts when the DC to DC converter is on the car will run.  The DC to DC converter takes the place of an alternator in a standard car.

 

This is why an AGM battery is better.  It maintains the voltage until it is almost completely discharged.  If it can supply enough voltage and current to pull in the two contactors that connect the HVB to the car, the car will run.

 

IMHO, as a retired Electrical Engineer, a wet cell battery is the wrong battery for the car.  Tesla learned this very early and switched to an AGM battery to provide 12 volts.

 

The last time I checked the size BCI 99 battery is only available from Ford.

 

I carry a 12 volt 7 AH battery in the car to jump start it if necessary.  It fits in the glove compartment.  The car was six years old in April and I have never had to use it because I replaced the wet cell battery with an AGM battery in 2013 when the car was 6 months old.

[pianewman]

All good info. Thanks!

 

Just found this: 

BCI Group 99 Battery Replacement - PC1200LMJT

Product Number: PC1200LMJT

 

Odyssey, but based on the photo, the terminals are reversed. (I dealt with that with my AGM replacement for my 2015 Leaf...Bosch makes 2 different versions.)

Edited August 21, 2019 at 03:54 PM by pianewman

[murphy]

All good info. Thanks!

 

Just found this: 

BCI Group 99 Battery Replacement - PC1200LMJT

Product Number: PC1200LMJT

 

Odyssey, but based on the photo, the terminals are reversed. (I dealt with that with my AGM replacement for my 2015 Leaf...Bosch makes 2 different versions.)

This one has the terminals in the right place.

I don't know if it is the same size.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-PC1200MJT-Automotive-LTV-Battery/dp/B002496GK8/ref=sr_1_2?gclid=CjwKCAjw1_PqBRBIEiwA71rmtaM4_367lyK4X5SvQCTwRxA3zmdYM00mWRENesRJnqbjNH25RIieyBoC5AUQAvD_BwE&hvadid=190508668756&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9007247&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t2&hvqmt=e&hvrand=6170971305235078187&hvtargid=kwd-310335817830&hydadcr=5923_9590692&keywords=pc1200lmjt&qid=1566410007&s=gateway&sr=8-2

[rbort]

$273 for the AGM battery?  You can get two stock batteries for that price..

 

I'm glad I live up north, we get the full spectrum of weather here, where in Texas its only two options most of the time, hot or hotter...??  

 

Heat is not good for batteries, it will also destroy your HVB prematurely if you don't watch the temperature carefully, and if you do watch it you'll find out its best not to use the car on hot days at all, try to keep the HVB as cool as possible and discharged as much as possible, like 5 to 25% max.  

 

Even with that its going to live a shorter life compared to being in a cooler climate.

 

-=>Raja.

[pianewman]

We also have a 2015 LeafS, 32k miles, notoriously poor (only passive cooling) battery, I lost one of 12 bars of capacity at 28k miles. Range still 75-80. I charge it to 100% every night (NOT recommended), as we might just need the full range the next day. I'm pleased with the car, and it seems to be handling the fact I'm not pampering it.

 

However, it doesn't get much summer use, and then, of course, only short trips.

 

I'm pleased with my garage of cars...Four very different cars!

 

2014 Toyota Avalon Hybrid Limited

2013 Ford CMax

2015 Nissan LeafS

2017 Ford Fusion Energi

Edited August 21, 2019 at 09:59 PM by pianewman

[pianewman]

#%)_#&%$(#*$&@#%*#@)#(%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

My wife just told me that when she was home, for 3 days, during the 3rd week of our 6 weeks away, that she drove the car, and parked it AND THINKS SHE FORGOT TO LOCK IT!

 

So...it was sitting for 3 1/2 weeks, unlocked. That's what pulled the battery down, NOT 6 weeks, locked.

 

I know I'm splitting hairs, or, as my wife's grandfather used to say, "...picking the fly shit out of the pepper!", but I do like to know cause/effect.

[murphy]

My car sits in my garage unlocked all of the time.  That has no effect on my 12 volt battery. 

Getting out of the car without turning it off would but that is hard to do if you aren't deaf because it will blow the horn to warn you.

[rbort]

Locked or unlocked doesn't make a hill of beans, totally agree with Murphy.  Now look here, the thing only lasted 3 1/2 weeks not even 6!!  Next time either jump it with a big deep cycle battery or put it on a trickle charger :)

 

FYI as I said before, my Cmax lasted 4 weeks with a 12v deepcycle connected to it, and yes FYI its unlocked I never lock it inside the garage.

 

If you want to know the cause, disconnected the negative cable off the battery, and then connect it through a voltmeter on 10 amps in series to read the current.  Lock or don't lock and leave the car alone for a few minutes until everything times out, then come back and look and see what draw you have on the voltmeter.  That is your parasitic draw of the car's computer/power systems/modules that are "sleeping" in the background waiting for you to access it via the remote or the door handle or MFM.  That amount is a constant drain on the battery, and then you take the size of your battery and you can calculate how many hours or days it can last.  That's it, its not a big secret, there is always some draw and if you never use the car its going to kill the battery is so many days, how many depends on how new the battery is, (new meaning how much capacity is now has), and how well charged it is.

 

-=>Raja.

Edited August 22, 2019 at 01:57 AM by rbort

[pianewman]

Locked or unlocked doesn't make a hill of beans, totally agree with Murphy.  Now look here, the thing only lasted 3 1/2 weeks not even 6!!  Next time either jump it with a big deep cycle battery or put it on a trickle charger :)

 

FYI as I said before, my Cmax lasted 4 weeks with a 12v deepcycle connected to it, and yes FYI its unlocked I never lock it inside the garage.

 

If you want to know the cause, disconnected the negative cable off the battery, and then connect it through a voltmeter on 10 amps in series to read the current.  Lock or don't lock and leave the car alone for a few minutes until everything times out, then come back and look and see what draw you have on the voltmeter.  That is your parasitic draw of the car's computer/power systems/modules that are "sleeping" in the background waiting for you to access it via the remote or the door handle or MFM.  That amount is a constant drain on the battery, and then you take the size of your battery and you can calculate how many hours or days it can last.  That's it, its not a big secret, there is always some draw and if you never use the car its going to kill the battery is so many days, how many depends on how new the battery is, (new meaning how much capacity is now has), and how well charged it is.

 

-=>Raja.

 

Very interesting. That was NOT my experience with any of the 2009>>> VW TDIs (4 of them) that I owned. TDIClub "gurus" said the parasitic draw, when unlocked, is much greater than when locked. I frequently left one of my cars, locked, undriven, for 5-6 weeks, with no problem. 

 

Both my Toyota tech and my Nissan tech have told me the same thing: locked is preferable, vs. unlocked. (MURPHY: if the car is used on a daily basis, there wouldn't be a problem...)

 

rbort: Have you actually done your proposed test, with the voltmeter, locked vs. unlocked? I'll be asking my Ford tech the same question tomorrow AM, when I have them load test the OEM battery.

 

Thanks for the lively respectful discussion. It's great to learn from other's experience! (I'm relatively new to Ford, only 3 years with the CMax, and 8 months with the Fusion Energi)

[murphy]

Correction of above:  Current is measured with an ammeter, not a voltmeter.

Most people have a multimeter which does both plus a lot more.

 

The keyfob circuitry is always on or you wouldn't be able to unlock the car.

The cellular data radio is always on or a Ford server would not be able to call the car.

 

I have measured the battery current with a 10 ampere ammeter in series with a battery cable.  That was back in 2013 and I don't remember the idling value other than it was less than 1 amp.  Starting the smartphone app or using the web site from a computer pegged the 10 amp meter so I know it was somewhere more than 10 amps to wake the car up.

 

Yes if the car is used on a daily basis there should not be any 12 volt battery problem unless the battery has reached the end of its life.  I am retired and have more than one car so mine quite often sits for a week between drives.

[pianewman]

YAY!: Ford will warrant the "failed" battery, in month 34 of 36 month warranty. OEM, lead/acid battery. I won't complain, and will replace with an AGM in a year or two.

 

Tech reiterated that in our region in Texas, OEM batteries fail, on average, between 32 and 41 months. 

 

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrCmmSv6F5dIHwAHSUPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=ford+battery+expectancy+map&fr=yhs-pty-pty_maps&hspart=pty&hsimp=yhs-pty_maps

[pianewman]

...continuing to flog a dead horse...

 

New OEM battery installed, battery minder reset, etc. etc.

 

Out of curiosity, thinking the battery might have been stored for a while, I decided to plug in my BatterTenderPlus overnight. It immediately showed 80% charged, then showed fully charged 7 hours later.

 

Ford dealer service adviser agreed that if the car needs to sit for extended periods, plug in the BatteryTender.

 

Now...to move on without thinking about the car's battery!