How Many Miles did You Get out of your Michelin's

[ptjones]

How many miles did you get from your Michelin Energy Savers tires and What tire pressure did you use?  I have gone through 3 sets with total mileage of 213k miles.  Michelin Energy Savers AS are warrantied for 55k miles and at 50 psi I got 64.5k and 64k miles out of my first two sets which weren't worn down to the 2/32", I replaced them because I was going on long trips in snowy conditions and wanted max tread.  My third set I replaced the fronts at 78k because of puncture in sidewall. They could gone probably 3k more miles anyways. The rears I moved to the front and they currently have 85k miles and looks like they will make 90k mile unless I have to go on trip in snowy conditions.  :) 

 

Paul

[My14Energi]

I got 73k out of mine but switched to a more performance oriented tire for wet traction. Those Michelins were very unstable and unsafe in wet weather.

[ptjones]

I got 73k out of mine but switched to a more performance oriented tire for wet traction. Those Michelins were very unstable and unsafe in wet weather.

What tire pressure did you use and how much tread did you have left?  Were the tires wearing on inside edge, center or outside.

 

Paul

[ptjones]

15k miles later after replacing the fronts with sidewall hole, moving the rears to the front, new one's the rear and 95k miles on my front Michelin's using 50 psi, they still have 4/32" tread on outside, 3/32" tread on center and inside. Anyone else getting that kind of tread wear? Just another example of the advantages of using 50 psi in Michelin ES tires. BTW I had a panic stop yesterday when someone tried turning in front of me. I slammed on the brakes and turned right to avoid hitting them.  Anything that was loose came flying to the front of the car. Tires and brakes worked great!

 

Paul 

[Steve smith]

Replaced the michlins at 69,850 miles .Still good tread ,but getting noisey. Replaced with Uniroyal tiger paw touring . Very quiet  and still get 43 mpg with them.

[Timewellspent]

I still have the originals on my 2015 with 69,314 miles.  I run at 38psi 3 over the recommended tire pressure.  No need to run at unsafe 50 psi that has been recommended.  I rotate around every 10k miles and tread is still good and even.  I plan to replace them this year before winter with Michelin Defenders.  As stated prior the Energy Savers really do stink in the rain.

[ptjones]

I find the Energy Savers work just fine in the rain when you use 50 psi. 

 

Paul

[jj2me]

With any automobile tire, hydroplaning correlates inversely with tread depth.

[jsamp]

With any automobile tire, hydroplaning correlates inversely with tread depth.

 

Interestingly, it also correlates with the square root of tire pressure.  If the water is deeper than the tread, the equation is:

 

Speed of Hydroplaning (MPH) = 10.35* √tire pressure(psi)

 

So 50psi would be above 73MPH before it would hydroplane.

Edited June 19, 2019 at 04:48 AM by jsamp

[pianewman]

I'm at 28k miles, 45psi, and in the rain, the tires spin too easily while accelerating from a dead stop. I hardly touch the go pedal and they break loose, especially on road paint stripes.

 

Probably 50% tread remaining, but if they're so "slick" on acceleration, I'm concerned they won't have much grip when stopping, or in an emergency.

 

I'm enjoying my Michelin Premier A/S on my Avalon Hybrid, and our CMax, and might just change out the Energy Savers.

[murphy]

I'm at 28k miles, 45psi, and in the rain, the tires spin too easily while accelerating from a dead stop. I hardly touch the go pedal and they break loose, especially on road paint stripes.

 

Probably 50% tread remaining, but if they're so "slick" on acceleration, I'm concerned they won't have much grip when stopping, or in an emergency.

 

I'm enjoying my Michelin Premier A/S on my Avalon Hybrid, and our CMax, and might just change out the Energy Savers.

They are supposed to be at 35 psi cold.  No wonder they slip so easily.

[pianewman]

Murphy: Yes, I know, but read the rest of this thread. For 45 years, I've ALWAYS bumped up PSI to minimize rolling resistance, increase MPG, and increase tread life. I've never experienced this much slippage in the wet, on a tire with 50% tread remaining. (I might try dropping to 35PSI and see if it makes a difference!)

 

The Premier A/S on my Avalon, at 50k miles, never lost traction so easily. I've compared the tread design, and the Premier A/S has much more pronounced sipes, and Energy Saver has almost smooth blocks, at 29k miles. 

 

Hmm...The Premier promotes the traction aspect for the life of the tread, that the sipes actually get wider with wear. I don't how they do that, but it seems to be true!  

[murphy]

An electric motor has maximum torque at 0 rpm.  If it is going to break loose, that is where it will happen. A gasoline engine has maximum torque usually between 2000 and 4000 rpm.

[pianewman]

Murphy: Again, you are correct. My 350hp 1993 Audi S4 max torque was around 2200 rpm, IIRC. I understand the torque curve (there is none!) of electric motors.

 

I'll make my point again. The only way to "roll into" the throttle of the Energi w/o breaking the tires loose is as follows: I have to release the brake, allow the car to roll (slowly!) on its own for a few feet and then barely rest my foot on the throttle. The slightest pressure will cause the tires to spin.

 

My wife, who is a reasonably sensitive driver, is having a tough time doing this.

 

The next rainfall, I'll drop the PSI and see if I can make it work. I hate to lose the MPG, and the dry traction, but...

 

ptjones: You're a proponent of higher PSI. Are you having the same wet traction issues with the Energy Savers? I'd love to hear your input.

[ptjones]

I got this from Tire Rack:

 

Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on PinterestEmail Page to a Friend TIRE TECH: AIR PRESSURE VS. WET PERFORMANCE

(Lea en español)

Most drivers realize that tire load capacity is determined by tire size and inflation pressure. Larger tires and higher inflation pressures provide more load capacity, while smaller tires and lower tire pressures provide less.

An under-inflated tire will tend to wear the shoulder areas of the tread faster than the center. This is because there is insufficient air pressure to allow the center of the tread to carry its fair share of the weight. A correctly inflated tire receives appropriate support from the contained air pressure to provide an even distribution of load across the footprint. And while most drivers recognize that this has a significant impact on tire wear, rolling resistance and durability, only a few realize it also has a noticeable influence on how effectively the tires can resist hydroplaning to maintain wet traction.

As they taught us in physics class, you can compress and move a gas quite easily, but you cannot compress liquids and it requires significant energy to move them. Our tires easily push air around and through their tread designs as they roll. However, when water pools in highway ruts and builds up on the road surface during rainstorms, the vehicle's speed and weight, as well as the tires' tread designs, tread depths and evenness of their footprint pressures determines if and when the tires will be forced to hydroplane.

One of the ways tire manufacturers evaluate their products' hydroplaning and wet traction effectiveness is by driving them over a glass plate covered with a specific depth of water. The water is dyed for better visibility and to allow high-speed cameras in underground rooms to photograph the tires from below. Michelin has provided several photographs of its HydroEdge premium All-Season tire to help illustrate this tech feature.

Photo #1

Photo #2

Photo #3

Photo #4

The first photograph shows a tire properly inflated to 35 psi sitting still in the water on the glass plate. This provides an accurate idea of the tire's footprint size and shape.

The black area is where the tire's rubber compound is pressed on the glass, and the green areas identify water in the tire's circumferential and high-angle lateral grooves, and on the remainder of the glass plate.

A properly inflated tire will have enough pressure in the center of its tread to resist collapsing.

The second picture is of a tire properly inflated to 35 psi, driving across the glass at 60 miles per hour. If the glass plate were dry, the footprint size would be virtually identical to the first picture because air does not prevent the tread from contacting the plate. However, with standing water on the plate, the tire's tread depth and tread design must evacuate the water as the tire rolls across the plate at 88 feet per second. You will notice that the footprint still shows good contact with the plate, but is slightly smaller than the static tire's footprint.

A tire that is slightly under-inflated will apply less pressure to the center of the tread and it will become slightly concave.

The third picture is of a tire inflated to only 30 psi, again driving across the glass at 60 miles per hour. With the same amount of standing water on the plate, the center of the tire's tread is lifted as the tread design unsuccessfully attempts to evacuate water as the tire rolls across the plate. You will notice that the actual footprint shows poor contact with the plate and is significantly smaller than the footprint in the photograph of the properly inflated tire.

A tire that is significantly under-inflated will allow the center of the tread to collapse and become very concave, trapping water rather than flowing it through the tread design.

The final picture is of a tire inflated to only 25 psi, driving across the glass plate at 60 miles per hour. With the same amount of standing water, the water lifts the center of the tire's tread as its footprint rolls across the plate. You will notice that the actual footprint shows little contact with the plate and has been virtually reduced to the shoulder areas.

Members of the Tire Rack team had the chance to experience the effects of air pressure on wet performance at Michelin's Laurens Proving Grounds. Drivers were given the opportunity to compare identical cars on a wet-handling course with the exception of one car having four properly inflated tires (35 psi) and the other car having significantly under-inflated tires on the rear axle (25 psi).

While driving at the edge of a tire's ability in wet conditions is challenging, the car with the properly inflated tires provide handling that was predictable. Driving the car with the under-inflated rear tires proved to be much more difficult to drive and forced the driver to slow down to retain control, producing lap times that were several seconds slower than the properly inflated car.

While tire manufacturers can develop tires with great hydroplaning resistance and wet traction, poor maintenance of tire inflation pressures can make a great tire awful.

Adjust your tire pressures as indicated on the vehicle tire placard or in the owner's manual. Check your inflation pressures at least once a month and before highway trips.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

As you can see lowering your tire pressure doesn't necessarily improve traction. Do you have traction control on? You can't spin the tires with it on.  I don't have this problem at 48 psi., I thought I was at 50 psi but my stick tire pressure gauge was reading 2 psi high compared to my new digital one. :(  Like "murphy" said the electric motors have a lot of torque from a stop and I use them to get up to 15-20 mph before the ICE comes on. :)

 

Paul

 

Edited August 26, 2019 at 02:30 PM by ptjones

[pianewman]

Interesting read. Thanks for posting it.

 

I wonder why Michelin didn't run the same test with OVER inflated tires?

 

Beating a dead horse here, but my issue isn't hydroplaning. The traction loss occurs upon gentle acceleration, from a dead stop, specifically over painted road stripes (crosswalks). Of course, this can occur in any car, ICE vs Elec, FWD, RWD,...but I feel it's excessive with the Energy Savers.

 

I think we've wrung about all there is on this. Thanks for a lively discussion.

[ptjones]

Maybe it is a problem in your area like slippery paint or how thick they put in on. Haven't noticed it here, lines aren't real smooth here. :headscratch: Higher pressures should be a deterrent to hydroplaning and slippery roads putting more lbs/sq, in. on the ground.  Check your tires thread depth across the tire to see tire wear to see if you are over or under inflated.

 

Paul

Edited August 26, 2019 at 06:57 PM by ptjones

[Timewellspent]

Mine were really bad on the painted crosswalks as well when wet.  Being first at the red light and starting out when green will cause the tires to spin on the crosswalk markings.  Also turning through an intersection the car would actually slide across the big white crosswalk squares again when wet.

[pianewman]

The saga continues...

 

Tread is even across all the ribs.

 

I finally too the time to read the Energy Saver reviews on TireRack. Interesting that several (many?) comment on poor wet traction.

 

Timewellspent: Your experience is exactly like mine. I don't think changing the PSI will help.

 

I've never had a set of tires spin/slide like these do, except...uhh...well...early Michelin Radial Tires (Sears!), , mid-1970s, on my nose-heavy 1971 Mercury Comet V8. Tires lasted FOREVER, but at about 85k miles, early morning mist, gentle braking...went into a very dramatic slide, fortunately no traffic. Replaced them quickly afterward.

[ptjones]

I would think 45 psi should be close to optimum tire pressure.  I don't know what could be different other than you are more aggressive driver?  I am pretty conservative when driving in the rain. It rained going home today and I still didn't have any problems with spin/slide, do your roads have oil on them?  How is your alignment?  I'm sorry but I can't reproduce your problems. :headscratch:  

 

Paul

[pianewman]

Alignment? Don't think that could be a problem. The issue I have is limited to starting from a dead stop, only extremely gentle throttle keeps it from spinning. I may just have a particularly hyper fueling issue. It's just not linear from a dead stop.

I'm not going to worry about it any more. I just have to remember to start out more gently, which I thought I was already doing! Whether or not my wife can make it work? We'll see.

[Paul Creed III]

I have noticed the same issue: I am OK on accelerating from a dead stop on wet pavement or concrete but, if I am stopped on the stop line or the crosswalk line, its very, very easy to get a spin. I've even noticed just walking on these lines when they are wet can be entertaining. 

[murphy]

They may not be paint.

 

http://www.industrialtrafficlines.com/road-striping-services.html

 

Wet plastic can be very slippery.

[pianewman]

They may not be paint.

 

http://www.industrialtrafficlines.com/road-striping-services.html

 

Wet plastic can be very slippery.

 

Good point. Do I remember seeing a tape-like material rolling out of a flaming machine, bonding it to the road surface?

Regardless of the material, I don't slip with the other tires in my garage of cars.

[ptjones]

Couple of days ago I was stopped at intersection with light rain when light went green. Was pointed uphill a little and started moving went 6' and crossed over white crosswalk line and tire slipped. I regained traction when off the line and I don't think any tire could have done better under those conditions. IMO :)  I don't see this as a real problem as long as you aren't riding on painted  lines all the time.

 

Paul