2018 fusion energi

[dudley]

The 2018 fusion energi does not have ev+ and no more health report to be able see oil life%. what do you guys think. what else did ford change that they're not telling us.

[jsamp]

My guess is Ford learned (the hard way) that draining a battery too far is one of the things that kills the life of a battery.  This study shows all the things that harm a Li-Ion battery:

 

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/66708.pdf-  See next to last page for conclusions.

 

Depth of Discharge (DOD) is one of the key factors, especially on cycle life.   EV+ takes the battery into the 90%+ DOD range, which is too far.

 

The oil life thing confuses me. In my 2015 not only does it show, but you can reset it in 10% increments.  That was helpful as the dealer who serviced my car before selling it to me didn't reset the oil life, and I didn't realize it until 5K miles later.

 

edit:  Sorry - the link had an extra space in it.

Edited January 4, 2018 at 05:39 PM by jsamp

[dudley]

EV+ takes the battery into the 90%+ DOD range, which is too far.   No I didn't think that's it at all, the + is about 1/2 mile at best. new car is only using 5.0 to 5.2 of 7.6 kwh.

[jj2me]

Corrected link (removing the garbage character at the end): https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/66708.pdf

 

[jj2me]

EV+ takes the battery into the 90%+ DOD range, which is too far.   No I didn't think that's it at all, the + is about 1/2 mile at best. new car is only using 5.0 to 5.2 of 7.6 kwh.

 

[EDIT: FLAWED ANALYSIS]

 

My one-year old FFE sees 5.5 - 5.6 kWh in EV from 100% charge to it automatically switching to hybrid mode.  Then there's also the capacity reserved for hybrid mode (1.5 kWh?), which supposedly tries to keep itself at the middle of that range (0.75 kWh, on average, remaining?).  5.6 emptied in a full DoD + 0.75 typically emptied in the hybrid zone = 6.35 kWh (if the 1.5 and 0.75 numbers are correct) = 83.5% of battery used in an average full depth of discharge (DoD).  If your half mile estimate is correct, it calculates to only about 0.14 kWh extra on EV+, making it ~84% calculated estimate for DoD.

Edited January 3, 2018 at 11:02 PM by jj2me

[jsamp]

My one-year old FFE sees 5.5 - 5.6 kWh in EV from 100% charge to it automatically switching to hybrid mode.  Then there's also the capacity reserved for hybrid mode (1.5 kWh?), which supposedly tries to keep itself at the middle of that range (0.75 kWh, on average, remaining?).  5.6 emptied in a full DoD + 0.75 typically emptied in the hybrid zone = 6.35 kWh (if the 1.5 and 0.75 numbers are correct) = 83.5% of battery used in an average full depth of discharge (DoD).  If your half mile estimate is correct, it calculates to only about 0.14 kWh extra on EV+, making it ~84% calculated estimate for DoD.

 

That is assuming all of the "buffer" is at the lower end of the battery.  We have concluded that there is ~.5kwh buffer, but as murphy has suggested there is some buffer at the top end allowing for room when the HVB is charged to 100%.  If we assume that buffer is split evenly, that's another .25kWh taken off your calculation.  That puts it quite close to 90% DOD.  These are all assumptions of course as we don't know how much buffer Ford used where, nor exactly how much is used in hybrid mode nor ev+ mode.

[Davidoo]

My one-year old FFE sees 5.5 - 5.6 kWh in EV from 100% charge to it automatically switching to hybrid mode.  Then there's also the capacity reserved for hybrid mode (1.5 kWh?), which supposedly tries to keep itself at the middle of that range (0.75 kWh, on average, remaining?).  5.6 emptied in a full DoD + 0.75 typically emptied in the hybrid zone = 6.35 kWh (if the 1.5 and 0.75 numbers are correct) = 83.5% of battery used in an average full depth of discharge (DoD).  If your half mile estimate is correct, it calculates to only about 0.14 kWh extra on EV+, making it ~84% calculated estimate for DoD.

 

I also have an almost exactly one year old 2017 FFE and I never got more than 5.2 kWh on a full charge.  After one year I got 5.0 to 5.1 the last 2 times I checked.  I still haven't noticed any decrease in the EV miles on starting the car after being charged.  Now that it is winter in Phoenix (lows around 50 and highs in the 70s lately) my mileage is now back up to around 30 EV miles each day.  During our brutal summers I was lucky to get 20 or 21.

[jj2me]

That is assuming all of the "buffer" is at the lower end of the battery.  We have concluded that there is ~.5kwh buffer, but as murphy has suggested there is some buffer at the top end allowing for room when the HVB is charged to 100%.  If we assume that buffer is split evenly, that's another .25kWh taken off your calculation.  That puts it quite close to 90% DOD.  These are all assumptions of course as we don't know how much buffer Ford used where, nor exactly how much is used in hybrid mode nor ev+ mode.

 

[EDIT: DON'T READ, FLAWED]

 

My thinking is that there's no split of the buffer, it's always maintained at a full 0.5 kWh.  Here's what I've come up with, riddled with all our assumptions about charge levels.

 

Depending on whether one thinks the hybrid portion of the battery is maintained at

- ~50% (estimated by some on this forum, and would yield superior battery longevity) or 

- ~67% (matches test runs' PID readings of BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM and final SoC [7.1 and 1.5], and matches this post by hybridbear, and would yield better mpg),

we calculate different upper and lower buffers.

 

I prefer the 67% assumption (calculations C2 and D2 below), and have used them before.  

They yield:

 

Nominally fully charged = 93.4% charged.

Nominally fully discharged = 13.2% - 19.7% charged (max EV+ to no EV+)

 

Detailed calculations of both assumptions:

 

C1. Charging to full, where hybrid portion maintains 50% full:

5.6 kWh filled by us

0.75 kWh of the 1.5 kWh hybrid portion.

0.5 kWh buffer, because the car never wants to fall to empty.

-----------

6.85 kWh at nominal "100%" charged.

 

6.85/7.6 = 90% full, headroom of 10% 

 

C2. Charging to full, where hybrid portion gets 2/3 full

5.6

1.0

0.5

------------

7.1 kWh at "100%" charged

 

7.1/7.6 = 93.4% full, headroom of 6.6%

 

-----------------------------------------

 

D1. Discharging from full, assuming hybrid portion was and remains at 50%:

5.6 kWh --> 0 kWh

0.75 --> 0.75, minus any EV+ miles, with lowest EV+ depletion to 0.5 per hybridbear's post

0.5 --> 0.5 for safety.

 

Average w/o EV+ = 1.25/7.6 = 16.4% bottom buffer.

Max EV+ discharge = 1.0/7.6 = 13.2%  "     "

 

D2. Discharging from full, assuming hybrid portion was and remains at 67%

5.6 kWh --> 0 kWh

1.0 --> 1.0, minus any EV+ miles, with lowest EV+ depletion to 0.5 per hybridbear's post

0.5 --> 0.5 for safety.

 

Average w/o EV+ = 1.5/7.6 = 19.7% bottom buffer.

Max EV+ discharge = 1.0/7.6 = 13.2%  "     "

Edited January 3, 2018 at 10:59 PM by jj2me

[jsamp]

 

My thinking is that there's no split of the buffer, it's always maintained at a full 0.5 kWh.  Here's what I've come up with, riddled with all our assumptions about charge levels.

 

Depending on whether one thinks the hybrid portion of the battery is maintained at

- ~50% (estimated by some on this forum, and would yield superior battery longevity) or 

- ~67% (matches test runs' PID readings of BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM and final SoC [7.1 and 1.5], and matches this post by hybridbear, and would yield better mpg),

we calculate different upper and lower buffers.

 

Interesting analysis, but I don't think there is any such thing as "hybrid portion maintained at 50%".  It is all one battery, and the software calls the shots as to when it switches from one mode to the other.  When my miles estimate reaches "0" it then switches to hybrid mode and shows the battery as full (this would be the hybrid portion as you call it).  It then drains that to the ~50% level and goes up or down from there.  That indicates that the "hybrid portion" is full when it switches modes.  Thus the "hybrid portion" is at 100% until you use up all of your plug miles.  That would change your calculations.

 

Of course this is all conjecture, but the feedback I see from the car indicates this is true.  I don't have a scanner to read PID readings, so I can't use those to understand the inner workings.

[jj2me]

Interesting analysis, but I don't think there is any such thing as "hybrid portion maintained at 50%".  It is all one battery, and the software calls the shots as to when it switches from one mode to the other.  When my miles estimate reaches "0" it then switches to hybrid mode and shows the battery as full (this would be the hybrid portion as you call it).  It then drains that to the ~50% level and goes up or down from there.  That indicates that the "hybrid portion" is full when it switches modes.  Thus the "hybrid portion" is at 100% until you use up all of your plug miles.  That would change your calculations.

 

Of course this is all conjecture, but the feedback I see from the car indicates this is true.  I don't have a scanner to read PID readings, so I can't use those to understand the inner workings.

 

Thanks, I think you're right.  I've only run in car-induced hybrid mode once when the dealer used up all my charge, and didn't notice the battery display nor PID SoC readings.

 

I found this post by cwstnsko on the C-Max forum that I might have originally gotten the 0.5 kWh buffer value from.  Apparently my interpretation of what he said was wrong.

 "Total nominal capacity (7.6 kWh) consists of Hybrid reserve (about 1.5 kWh) + HVB available for EV operation (about 5.6 when new) + Overcharge/longevity protection (about 0.5 kWh)."

 

Here's an attempt to coalesce your gauge observations, my PID readings, and cwstnsko's lower bound estimation (my analysis in the above posts is therefore wrong):

 

Discharge

1.5 kWh at start of car-induced hybrid mode --> full battery gauge

0.75 kWh --> half battery gauge

~0.5 kWh --> possibly represents the minimum value that the gauge (and battery) will go to = ~93% discharged

 

(We need PID readings of lowest observed SoC when running in car-induced hybrid mode with max EV+, to verify the "~0.5 kWh" figure.)

 

Your original statement that it might use up over 90% of the charge would definitely be true.

 

Charge

Practically new battery's actual PID readings of 7.1 BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM at nominal 100% = real 93.4% charged.  Same result as my above post, but without the obtuse reasoning.

 

Similar ~6.6% headroom whether charged or discharged, as far as we know right now.

Edited January 3, 2018 at 10:41 PM by jj2me

[expresspotato]

I never really did get the logic behind EV+ if the destination does not have a charger. My 2013 Hybrid had this and I really don't get how letting the driver use more of the battery because its going to 'rest' for a while. Wouldn't that make it worse? 

[keithsm2]

It assumes you are going to have to run the ICE when you first start the car anyway due to the ICE being Cold.

Applies to Hybrids moreso than Energis

Edited July 2, 2018 at 05:50 PM by keithsm2

[jsamp]

I never really did get the logic behind EV+ if the destination does not have a charger. My 2013 Hybrid had this and I really don't get how letting the driver use more of the battery because its going to 'rest' for a while. Wouldn't that make it worse? 

 

I think the logic was for when you do have destination charging.  It would allow you to avoid ICE use when you are so close to your destination.  You're right, it doesn't make much sense if there is no charger at your destination.  Don't know why they would do that on a Hybrid.

[keithsm2]

The hybrid ice always runs on cold start till its warm. Also charges the battery while warming up

[ramsdaro]

I asked my dealership the other day how to see the oil life, and they had no idea. I would really like this feature back. 

I installed ford pass app first, and it had it, then I realized my FFE should use MFM so I switched to that. 

I then tried to access my ford pass to check the oil life, and it told me to use MFM when I put the VIN in. 

 

I then told them I read a warning light will come on when a change is needed, and they basically destroyed me for even thinking about waiting that long and that it would be around 16,000 KMs when that came on. They said I should come in at 8000 KMs 

I had a 2014 FF and I did it every 15,000 KMs and had no issues. 

[murphy]

They make their money doing unnecessary oil changes.  They tried to convince me it should be every 3000 miles.  Ford says every two years or 20,000 miles for the Energi.  I do it every two years since I'm retired and don't drive that much anymore.  My engine last ran in April.  Everything since then has been electric driving.