Go Times - Ford needs better software engineers

[jsamp]

It's getting cold, so I figured I'd try programming a "go time" to clear the windshield dew before I have to leave.  It seems Ford engineers don't understand what their customers want and instead think they know better.

 

I do overnight charging with a "charge time start" to align with lower nighttime rates.  I plugged it in at 10:00pm and it showed my start time correctly.  Then I set a "go time" and it suddenly changed the start time and changed to "charging". WHAT?????  I don't want it to charge now!  I couldn't get it to change, so I unplugged it and figured I'd manually plug it in when I got up in the morning.

 

When I plugged it in in the morning, it started charging but had a warning in yellow on the screen "charge will not be 100% at Go Time".  I didn't say I wanted 100% at go time and I don't want that.  I want it to start charging when I say so and heat up at my Go Time.  Why can't the car do what I tell it to?  At least it worked to plug it in in the morning and have my Go Time setting run the defrost.

 

It seems the engineers assumed you always want the battery at 100% before your Go Time.  I don't.

They also assume you want it at 100% at your charge end time regardless of your programmed start time.  I don't.

 

Stupid engineers. (BTW: I am one)

[muzicman61]

Not that I don't see a lot of opportunities for improvement in their programming, but i would guess that most people, when they plug in the car today, do want  a  100% charge when they go to use the vehicle the next day.  But maybe they'll read this post and modify the code so that charge times can be more detailed. :)

[murphy]

When the car is charged to the indicated 100% the HVB is NOT charged to the actual 100% the battery is capable of.  There is no need to charge to less than 100%.  If you don't charge to 100% your 12 volt battery will never be topped off using wall power since that happens after the HVB reaches 100% and the notice is sent indicating charging is complete.

[jsamp]

When the car is charged to the indicated 100% the HVB is NOT charged to the actual 100% the battery is capable of.  There is no need to charge to less than 100%.  If you don't charge to 100% your 12 volt battery will never be topped off using wall power since that happens after the HVB reaches 100% and the notice is sent indicating charging is complete.

 

Thanks murphy.  While I recognize that the HVB has a buffer above the 100%, I DO have a reason to not charge to 100% and that is battery life.  Reading enough posts here about batteries losing capacity has me convinced that if I don't need 100% I shouldn't charge to 100% because of the potential to reduce battery life.  I could be wrong on that, but I know I won't be on the losing side of that argument (as in losing battery capacity).  So I'm gladly willing to take that chance.

 

I run the ICE often enough that the 12V battery should be plenty topped off.  Haven't had a problem with it yet.

[Blastphemy]

I DO have a reason to not charge to 100% and that is battery life.

 

A completely unnecessary concern. This isn't a Tesla, Bolt, or Leaf with a large battery that can lose significant amounts of capacity if fully charged on a daily basis. You have a tiny little afterthought battery that gets barely 20 miles when fully charged. You're not going to see any significant reduction in capacity, even if you keep the car for 10 years. I've had mine for three and the capacity I have today is the same the capacity I had when I bought it. Don't let the paranoia of others cause you to waste time trying to only charge your car to a certain percentage of full - that's not what it's designed for. Just plug it in, let it charge, then drive in Auto - you'll be much happier.

[murphy]

A 100% charge indication in your car is NOT an actual 100% charge of the battery. 

[jj2me]

My FFE, which used 5.6 kWh from full to switching to hybrid mode on a test run (i.e., HVB like new), always reads 7.1 kWh when fully charged on PID "BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM". That's 93.4%, noting that that PID is only a calculated estimate.

 

Of the capacity breakdowns most often reported for the advertised 7.6 kWh HVB, namely:

5.6 kWh user chargeable

1.5 kWh reserved for hybrid mode

0.5 kWh safety reserve

that leaves only 0.5 kWh without charge, perhaps in the hybrid mode portion of the battery?

 

In any case, a fully charged HVB is most probably charged to over 80%, and perhaps over 90%. From bdginmo's reported experiences, that may possibly be a danger zone for battery longevity only under high temperatures, and not cooler temps, but who knows?

 

Although there are posts here of zero battery degradation over years of charging to 100%, we've so far seen none that state the method and results of testing, e.g., the drive-till-hybrid-mode test or the PID reading at full charge. Until then, we've really never seen actual results that contradict the less-full-is-better studies.

 

(That said, I'm charging to 100% tonight before a 400-mile trip early tomorrow.)

[jj2me]

A completely unnecessary concern. This isn't a Tesla, Bolt, or Leaf with a large battery that can lose significant amounts of capacity if fully charged on a daily basis. You have a tiny little afterthought battery that gets barely 20 miles when fully charged. You're not going to see any significant reduction in capacity, even if you keep the car for 10 years. I've had mine for three and the capacity I have today is the same the capacity I had when I bought it. Don't let the paranoia of others cause you to waste time trying to only charge your car to a certain percentage of full - that's not what it's designed for. Just plug it in, let it charge, then drive in Auto - you'll be much happier.

 

This has it backwards.  The tiny FFE battery uses a higher percentage of its cells all the time, so it's more prone to battery degradation than cars like the Tesla with larger batteries (not even considering the superior cooling of Teslas).  Also, "barely 20 miles" indicates you may have battery degradation, unless you have more aggressive driving habits, or were unfortunate enough to get a bad battery when new.

 

I think it's useful to collect information and data, irrespective of how or if we'll then use that information.  I'm happy to know how regenerative braking works and its benefits.  That doesn't mean I can't stomp on the brakes and engage the calipers whenever I want.

[My14Energi]

A completely unnecessary concern. This isn't a Tesla, Bolt, or Leaf with a large battery that can lose significant amounts of capacity if fully charged on a daily basis. You have a tiny little afterthought battery that gets barely 20 miles when fully charged. You're not going to see any significant reduction in capacity, even if you keep the car for 10 years. I've had mine for three and the capacity I have today is the same the capacity I had when I bought it. Don't let the paranoia of others cause you to waste time trying to only charge your car to a certain percentage of full - that's not what it's designed for. Just plug it in, let it charge, then drive in Auto - you'll be much happier.

NOOOO!!!!!

 

Dont use your a/c or heat!!

 

Dont go over 45mph!!

 

Dont play your radio with the volume more than halfway!!

 

Dont use your wipers in the rain unless absolutely necessary!!

 

You've been warned!!

[Blastphemy]

Also, "barely 20 miles" indicates you may have battery degradation, unless you have more aggressive driving habits, or were unfortunate enough to get a bad battery when new.

 

The 2015 FFE only gets 18-21 miles per charge. That's the way it's always been, unless you're a hypermiler, in which case you could get more (and waste a lot of time doing it). I drive my FFE like a normal car, not worrying about when the battery has been depleted enough for the gas engine to kick in. I always charge it fully. And the amount of mileage I get with the battery is the same as I got on the first day I owned it. In the winter its a little less, and in the summer its a little more, just like every other electric car. Being so paranoid about a potential minor loss of capacity over many years -- to the point that you charge and discharge the battery in a manner not consistent with how it's designed -- is just plain silly. Why would anyone with these types of hysterical battery concerns buy a Ford Fusion Energi?? You're going to waste sooooo much time trying to prevent something that is never going to happen! lol.

[jsamp]

A completely unnecessary concern. This isn't a Tesla, Bolt, or Leaf with a large battery that can lose significant amounts of capacity if fully charged on a daily basis. You have a tiny little afterthought battery that gets barely 20 miles when fully charged. You're not going to see any significant reduction in capacity, even if you keep the car for 10 years. I've had mine for three and the capacity I have today is the same the capacity I had when I bought it. Don't let the paranoia of others cause you to waste time trying to only charge your car to a certain percentage of full - that's not what it's designed for. Just plug it in, let it charge, then drive in Auto - you'll be much happier.

Blast,

You seem to not fully understand batteries.  Charging and/or discharging at a high rate (known as "C" rate) is bad for most types of batteries, including the Li-Ion in the Energi.  "C" rate is the amount of time it takes to deplete a full charge, where a C of 1 would empty the battery in exactly an hour.  Below a 1C rate is good for battery life, the lower the better.  If you have a small battery like the Energi with 20 miles range, and you drive at 60MPH you will empty the battery in 20 minutes.  That is a drain rate of 3C which is high and not good for the battery.

But a Tesla or Bolt with a much larger battery can go for ~3 hours before running dry which makes the drain rate approximately .33C which is really good.  That is why there will be much higher degradation on a smaller battery than a big one.  The Energi was not designed with battery longevity in mind.  It has too small of a battery for that. 

While it is great that you see minimal degradation, others on this site have not been so lucky.  They've seen significant loss of capacity in as little as 2 years.  So your 10 year claim seems to be a bit off.

[Blastphemy]

Not charging fully and not depleting fully, resulting in about perhaps 13-16 EV miles per drive, so that in four years you'll have 16-20 EV miles per drive on a full charge is completely ridiculous. Why would anyone not want to get their full 18-21 miles per charge right from the get-go? That's gotta be the dumbest argument I've ever heard. You're basically advocating that people drive their car like the battery capacity has already diminished so that some day in the future they can drive the car on a full charge and use the full capacity to go even farther? Duh! If the battery is doomed to degrade, then what sane person wouldn't take full advantage of the full range before it does?! If this car's battery is so bad, then how is Ford tricking y'all into buying their Energi cars? lol. Anyone who buys a Ford Fusion Energi only to worry constantly about battery degradation has bought the wrong car.

[jsamp]

 Duh! If the battery is doomed to degrade, then what sane person wouldn't take full advantage of the full range before it does?! If this car's battery is so bad, then how is Ford tricking y'all into buying their Energi cars? lol. Anyone who buys a Ford Fusion Energi only to worry constantly about battery degradation has bought the wrong car.

Clearly you don't get it.  I'm not saying your battery will improve if you charge/discharge more gently.  I'm saying it WON'T DEGRADE IN THE FIRST PLACE so that it will perform nearly as well at 5-10 years old as it did when new.  I want my car to do as well 5 years from now as it does today at 50k miles which is nearly as good as new (5.4kWh today vs 5.6 new).

 

Not charging fully and not depleting fully, resulting in about perhaps 13-16 EV miles per drive, so that in four years you'll have 16-20 EV miles per drive on a full charge is completely ridiculous. Why would anyone not want to get their full 18-21 miles per charge right from the get-go? That's gotta be the dumbest argument I've ever heard. You're basically advocating that people drive their car like the battery capacity has already diminished so that some day in the future they can drive the car on a full charge and use the full capacity to go even farther?

 

Guess what?  Most other car manufacturers already did this for you.  Ever notice that the Audi A3, Honda Accord, and BMW sedan plug-ins had bigger batteries, yet shorter range?  Why? because they knew that pushing a battery too hard would degrade it faster.  So they limited the range to increase battery life (and reduce lawsuits about degraded batteries).  They are smarter than Ford on this one.

[jj2me]

Not charging fully and not depleting fully, resulting in about perhaps 13-16 EV miles per drive, so that in four years you'll have 16-20 EV miles per drive on a full charge is completely ridiculous. Why would anyone not want to get their full 18-21 miles per charge right from the get-go? That's gotta be the dumbest argument I've ever heard. You're basically advocating that people drive their car like the battery capacity has already diminished so that some day in the future they can drive the car on a full charge and use the full capacity to go even farther? Duh! If the battery is doomed to degrade, then what sane person wouldn't take full advantage of the full range before it does?! If this car's battery is so bad, then how is Ford tricking y'all into buying their Energi cars? lol. Anyone who buys a Ford Fusion Energi only to worry constantly about battery degradation has bought the wrong car.

 

There are indications that Ford didn't design this battery well enough for battery longevity.

 

1. It's a small battery, see C rate explanation above, and there are also DoD (depth of discharge) concerns (e.g., Ford's removal of EV+ on 2018s) and concerns over more cycles.

2. It has no battery heater other than cabin heating. Even the degradation-prone Nissan Leaf has a battery heater.  Why would the other manufacturers incur the expense of a battery heater if it wasn't needed for EV-mode use?

3. It is only air cooled, most larger battery EVs have superior liquid cooling and heating.  Why wouldn't the other manufacturers use cheaper cabin cooling?  Especially if it worked adequately in such a small battery.

4. There are numerous reports of early Energi HVB degradation, which seems to validate concerns 1-3. 

 

We're owners now, and have to choose how to deal with the perceived design weaknesses, just like we need to deal with the apparent 12V battery design weakness (install AGM? carry a charger? trickle charge often? Triple-A membership?) or any vehicle's weaknesses or pattern failures.

 

If one wants to eek out every last EV mile in a carefree manner, then that's one position (yours, apparently).  Downside is that if you keep the car for a long time, its EV performance will likely be diminished if your usage patterns stray into bad practices too often (e.g., high SoC and high temps, frequent full DoD, multiple charges/day), maybe at as early as 30K or 50K miles (or 20K for the Florida couple who kept it plugged in all the time to a L2 charger).  Downside is likely minimal if ownership is expected to be short lived (e.g., trade in car after a few years), except for sticking someone else with a degraded car.

 

On the other hand, if one wants to maintain their Energi at near its peak performance over the long term, then that's another position.  Downsides are it requires learning, and attention to charging/discharging details, which can be tedious for some while not very bothersome for others (I like Consumer Reports' summary that it's a car for gadget lovers), and that attention to charging/discharging details will sometimes have you refraining from using as much EV as you would otherwise like, in conditions that will be harmful to the battery.  It's possible that some may be be lucky enough that their personal driving patterns allow for almost constant EV use while also adhering to best practices (e.g., a 12 mile commute and charge-discharge of 80% to 20%).

 

At 100K or 120K miles, depending on driving patterns, it's conceivable that the two different types of use could result in the same number of EV miles (maintainers will be able to drive more EV miles later in the car's life, just because there are more available).

 

Both are valid positions for different subsets of people.

 

P.S. "the battery is doomed to degrade" is not true, at least not at the same rate of degradation.  Articles and models and expert quotes I've seen indicate that adhering to best practices might very well maintain this battery just fine over the long term.