Today bought an Energi, is it a mistake?

[jj2me]

After reading the thread on this forum entitled "Battery capacity @ 30K miles horrible", I'm thinking I made a big mistake.

 

Are there any high mileage, long-term Energis that don't have these types of battery problems?  If this problem is to be expected, does anyone have any estimates of how much it might cost to replace the big battery?  [Edit: Found part prices of $6767 and $7,784.94 with a My Price of $9,341.93 in this thread.] Yikes, not what I thought I was signing up for, after reading all glowing reviews on Edmunds.

 

I live in a state with no right of rescission on vehicle purchases, so I'm thinking I'm stuck, though there may be two outs:

- the dealer's 3-day exchange policy, where I'd have to buy some other vehicle on their lot, or

- lose my non-refundable deposit ($2K), or see if they'd bargain to take less of my deposit.

 

Any help is appreciated.

Edited June 10, 2017 at 11:01 AM by jj2me

[Russael]

Don't let one thread and a minority of problems scare you.  Most of us are extremely pleased with how our vehicles perform, and the glowing reviews you've read bolsters that.  And besides, there is an 8 year, 100k mile warranty on that battery.  Yes, the warranty information is vague, but Ford has replaced people's batteries on several occasions.  Again, considering the number of Energi vehicles (both CMAX and Fusion), that is a very small minority.

[jj2me]

Thanks.  I think I talked myself down off the ledge after reading a lot of battery threads on this site.  There's some great information here.  E.g.,

- charge to 80% is preferred over 100%,

- don't discharge to 0,

- prevent battery heat damage:

---- don't drive fast in EV

---- avoid too much regen on downhills,

---- keep the car itself and battery as cool as possible, etc.

 

I pick up the car (10K miles fleet car) on Monday.  At this point, I think I'll be getting it.  My other option is to get there early Monday before they do the paperwork, and swap for a 2015 (36K mi.) Certified SHO they have on the lot.

[openair]

The warranty on the battery only covers batteries that are defective in some way. It does not cover degradation. It is misleading to bring up that warranty to someone concerned of capacity long term. There must be some damaged cells lowering the capacity.

 

A reduction of capacity or available power is not covered. Many, including myself have reported 30-40%+ degradation with no action from Ford. For what it's worth this will be my last Ford and battery degradation is the least contributing factor to that decision.

 

Edit: To add to your list - level 2 charging and charging in below freezing weather also contributes to degradation.

Edited June 10, 2017 at 08:27 PM by openair

[jj2me]

Thanks for the help. 

 

I'm struggling to see if I can have a plan that would make this car an ok purchase and possibly even an enjoyable experience.  I'm stuck with this car.  Or at best, I lose the $2K deposit (if they'll even allow this).  So I'm looking to make something work, even if it's just a mental approach of lowered expectations that I can accept.  

 

In a not unlikely scenario, I enjoy 3-5 years of acceptable EV range, but gradually falling from 21 to 17 to 13 to 8 to 5.

Maybe battery capacity has diminished to 2.5  or 2.0 kWh or so, and neither Ford nor I want to put in an expensive new battery.  Can I just give up on EV because range would be so short, and just run in EV-Auto all the time?  I.e., would that just make it a heavy hybrid with poor trunk space?  Or is there something about these batteries and our usage of them that makes them lose all useful capacity early (like 70,000 miles), where even EV-Auto wouldn't work without a battery change?

 

I'm thinking some hybrids' batteries last to 150,000 miles, why shouldn't this bigger battery last just as well or maybe even longer?   So I would have EV for 40,000 miles, then would be forced to use it as a hybrid for another 100,000 or so miles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[openair]

It'll function as a hybrid for a long long time.  The degradtion will level off after time.  Worst case is probably 40-50%.

[murphy]

Don't panic when winter comes and it is below freezing and you only get 10 EV miles with the heater on.  The 5 kW resistance heater puts a big load on the battery plus cold weather reduces the efficiency of the battery.  My furthest regular destination is 10.5 miles away.  From late spring through early fall my engine never starts.

[jj2me]

It'll function as a hybrid for a long long time.  The degradtion will level off after time.  Worst case is probably 40-50%.

 

Thanks, that worst case number makes me quite a bit more relieved.

[jj2me]

Some more questions, all included here because of the awesome knowledge and help you've given me.  Let me know if I should start another thread, or move each question individually to the various threads they're most relevant to.

 

1. Does regen work in EV-Later mode?

 

2. When I caculate costs for a house that has a high electric rate ($.1925/kWh) and assume 80% Level 1 charging efficiency, the cost is now $.24/kWh.  What do I multiply this by?  

a. 7.6 kWh total HVB capacity 

b. 5.6 kWh max new HVB capacity for EV-Now operation.

c. observed, like 4.8 kWh, determined via the common "2nd trip meter test of full EV to ICE turning on"

 

If it's 7.6, then I'll rarely charge at that house (comes to $1.82/~20 miles)

If it's measured capacity like 4.8 kWh, then the cost is $1.15/~20 miles, more reasonable.

 

3. The general rule I'm gleaning from reading this forum is EV-Later for long highway trips, except for stretches of 50 mph or less.  On a 600-mile long trip, if 550 of those miles are at 75 mph, is it true that we might only see "approximately 22mpg on ICE"? (as calculated by this C-MAX owner, and not questioned by anyone further in the thread).  I realize that those 22 mpg weren't all at highway cruising speed, and that the Atkinson engine is a different breed, but this seems odd, to have this car get such low gas mileage on a long-distance trip, compared to a hybrid or even a fuel-efficient ICE-only car.

 

4. EV-Auto operation "automatically uses the EV first until it's discharged" according to this post, and not directly contradicted further in the thread.  From my reading, I'd add that EV-Auto will also start the ICE if there's an increased need for power.

Is this true?  If so, why don't more people recommend EV-Auto as opposed to EV-Now in suburban driving, for the convenience of having passing power when needed?

 

5. EV-Auto is often equated on this forum to "Hybrid mode".  If #4 above is true, that EV-Auto generally uses up EV first, are Fusion Hybrids programmed to be equally as dumb as EV-Auto, where they use up all the EV first, regardless of conditions?  Seems dumb programming, why not check speed and maybe battery temp and try to make a smarter decision?  Not only would it lessen battery degradation, it seems you'd get more overall mpg gain if you never run EV at 80 or 90 mph.

 

[murphy]

1. Yes

2. I just charged my car a couple of hours ago.  The EV part of the battery was empty, I was in hybrid mode as I entered the garage but the engine had not started.  I have a very accurate kWh meter dedicated to car charging and I use a level 2 240 volt EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment), the charger is built into the car.  The meter registered 6.46 kWh.  The trip log, in the app, said I used 5.1 kWh to go 23.9 miles.  My electric rate for the current month is $0.007354 so it cost me $0.05 to charge the battery.  With your rate it would be $1.24.

3.  Any time you are driving on a freeway EV Later is the best mode.  Drag increases with the square of the velocity so the faster you go the quicker the battery will be empty in EV Now mode.  It is not possible to drive on ICE only.  There is no correlation between vehicle speed and ICE RPM.  The computer selects the optimum RPM for the ICE.  Drive is either all electric or a combination of ICE direct drive and electric drive.  The eCVT is an amazing invention.  Unlike a CVT, which has belts, an eCVT has no belts, only electric motors.  The car is a hybrid when the HVB is depleted.  I have never seen mpg that low.  Actually my 2013 computes MPGe for me.  That was deleted in later years.  My MPGe for this mornings drive was 144.1.

4. I never use EV Auto if I can help it.  Unfortunately it is the default in several situations.  EV Now provides all of the power I that need.  Besides in grid locked local driving passing is rarely possible.

5. When the HVB is depleted EV Now and EV Later no longer exist.  In hybrid mode the computer tries to maintain the hybrid portion of the battery at 50%.  It NEVER goes to 0.  That is exactly the same as the hybrid version of the car.  Going to 0 would be really bad because the next time the ICE turned off the car would be a useless chunk of metal.  The ICE is started by one of the electric motors and they run off of the HVB.

Note that there is only one battery.  From memory, which doesn't always work, the lower 1.5 kWh of the HVB is dedicated to hybrid mode.
 

[jj2me]

 

Great stuff, thanks.

 

2. So it's the measured "HVB available for EV" number we need to multiply our efficiency-adjusted electric rate usage by.  Your case is 6.46 kWh used, at ~80% efficiency, that works out to ~5.1 kWh put into the car, which jibes completely.  (Except Level 2 chargers might get better than 80% efficiency, see here (PDF).

My rate of $1.24 isn't so bad then, considering that that house is on an 18-mile island where the maximum speed limit is 35 with lots of stoplights, so I'll probably eek out more than 20 miles.

Less than a penny a kWh!  Must be solar. 

 

3. 

- "It is not possible to drive on ICE only. ... Drive is either all electric or a combination of ICE direct drive and electric drive."

Thanks, I had no idea.  I imagined EV-Later was forced to always be ICE-only.

- Glad to hear that the 22 mpg figure was likely miscomputed.

- "The car is a hybrid when the HVB is depleted."  Again, I had no idea, I thought that the EV-Now/-Auto/-Later instructions were strict, where hybrid mode could only be entered via manually selecting EV-Auto.  So many misconceptions corrected by that paragraph.  Also, I thought CVTs were always belt-driven, so an eCVT sounds like it's better.

 

4, 5. Do we know if EV-Auto works the same as the hybrid mode that kicks in when the HVB is depleted (except that it uses the EV Available part of the HVB as opposed to using the hybrid reserve part)?  One would think so, that the strategies would be at least very similar.  

Regarding my question 5, I found an explanation of how the Fusion Hybrid (FFH) works, and it's not dumb at all, taking into consideration throttle position, speed, and battery charge level (and maybe more?).

 

An excerpt:

 

At virtually all speeds and all throttle positions, the gas engine and electric motor work together (are both running) in varying degrees, sometimes a little electric motor, sometimes a lot electric motor.

Under light throttle, the Fusion Hybrid will run all the way up to 60 mph on just the electric motor. Under mid-throttle while cruising, the Fusion Hybrid will operate on only the gas engine. At cruising speeds of 60 mph and above, the gas engine provides all the power.

When you accelerate with more than 25 percent of the throttle, the gas engine kicks in. The electric motor may or may not activate during moderate acceleration. However, during heavy acceleration, both the gas engine and electric motor are fully engaged. The electric motor generates its peak torque faster than the gas engine, but the gas engine produces more peak torque. The two work together for a perfectly acceptable throttle response.

The default powertrain is the battery-powered electric motor, not the gasoline engine. During stop and go, light throttle driving, the Fusion Hybrid will operate in electric-only mode until the HV battery is depleted enough to need charging by the gas engine.

The Fusion Hybrid is constantly trying to revert to electric motor-only status, especially at speeds under 35 mph. In fact, a slight lift off the throttle at most speeds under 60 mph will put the Fusion Hybrid in pure Electric Vehicle status. An easy throttle return will keep it in cruising at 55 mph EV mode almost indefinitely.

At a stop, the gas engine shuts off and the electric motor stops drawing current. HVAC and power steering are all operated from the high-voltage battery. The HV battery is charged two ways. First, it is directly charged by the gas engine. The HV battery is also recharged by regenerative braking. Every time the brakes are applied, some of the energy from the braking is recovered and stored in the HV battery.

 

Tomorrow I'm scheduled to pick up the car, and now I think I'll go through with it.

[openair]

"4,5: Do we know if EV-Auto works the same as the hybrid mode that kicks in when the HVB is depleted?

Ev-auto drives using the hvb first. Giving a Ev power threshold of 4 of the 5 bars of kw displayed on the empower display. If the throttle is pushed outside the 4Th bar into the 5 the ice auto engages to provide the additional power.

 

Ev now prevents the auto engage of the ice and limits throttle to the 4 bars unless OK is pushed or certain, mostly weather related, conditions are met.

 

Ev later operates much the same as the vehicle does once the Ev range is depleted, much the same as a hybrid. Changing and discharging the hvb within a -5/+2% window of the % of Ev range remaining when Ev later is set. Or a max of 95%.

Edited June 12, 2017 at 12:04 AM by openair

[murphy]

One correction.  There was a change in all electric operation.  The 60 mph limit for the hybrid was raised to 85 mph to match the Energi.  I don't understand why they did that since at 85 mph the HVB is being drained at a very high rate.  It doesn't matter to me since the highest speed limit around here is 70 mph.

[jj2me]

One last question if you will.  About 3 hours before I leave for the dealership.  I don't like my salesman, have no faith he'll provide me with any after-purchase help.  I am willing to ditch the deal and take a big loss, more than my $2K deposit.

 

The question is, does anyone truly recommend this car?

 

- murphy has solar panels, so this car makes a lot of sense, and he has the know-how and incentive to make it right, like put in an AGM battery at his expense.

 

- openair seems dissatisfied all around.

 

- Russael seems to like it.

 

 

My problems:

1.  Not reliable.  I'm doubting that I want a car that intermittently won't start. (12V battery problem, and I won't be installing an AGM while under warranty).  Plus I'm retired, with two other cars, and will undoubtedly have a week here and there when I don't drive the Energi.  I'm doubting I'll be happy with a routine of weekly charging the 12V, esp. in winter (car will be kept outside).  I especially don't want to worry about stalling in the left lane of a highway, as one person reported.

 

2. Bad longevity.  Because of HVB degradation.  I'm the kind that keeps cars for 130,000 miles/48,000 km.  I'm doubting I'll get anything like that without spending a large future amount on a HVB replacement.

Some examples of those with somewhat high miles who report HVB complaints on this thread:

---- "I have 65k miles on my energi and over time the max range has slowly but surely started petering down. When I first got it, a full charge would show a range of 23 miles (highest I have seen it) but mostly around the 19-20 mile range. 4 years later today, the max range shows as anywhere between 9-11 miles.

---- "Down below 4 kWH capacity after 43k miles."

---- "C-Max Energi is 3 years old and 56K miles ... capacity dropped to and stayed at 4.2KWH and 14m maximum range."

---- "Fusion Energi is about three years old with 32,000 miles. I am now only getting 4.3 - 4.5 kwh"

---- "2013 CMax Energi with about 42k miles; I get about 4.2kwhr"

 

3. Waiting a few years has the advantage that maybe Ford will liquid cool the HVB.

 

4. I don't have cheap electric rates.  (Maybe I'll figure something out.)

 

5. Nagging little problems, like the included Level 1 charger reportedly becoming useless (I want L1 for less iintroduced heat, as openair points out).

 

6. That salesman.

[murphy]

I think it is a great car.  I am disappointed that Ford has yet to make any improvements.  The 2017 appears to be the same as my 2013 and the hybrid drive train is the same as my 2010 Fusion hybrid, which I got in April 2009.  The 2010 was traded in on the 2013.

 

My ideal car would be the Energi with the engine removed and the battery replaced by a Tesla 100 kWh battery.  I got tired of waiting for Ford to move further into the electric age so my other car is a Tesla S90D.  The Energi is used for short trips around town to Lowe's, Home Depot, the supermarket etc.  The Telsa handles the long trips out of town.

[jj2me]

I think it is a great car.

 

Thank you so much.  

[bdginmo]

Thanks.  I think I talked myself down off the ledge after reading a lot of battery threads on this site.  There's some great information here.  E.g.,

- charge to 80% is preferred over 100%,

- don't discharge to 0,

- prevent battery heat damage:

---- don't drive fast in EV

---- avoid too much regen on downhills,

---- keep the car itself and battery as cool as possible, etc.

 

I pick up the car (10K miles fleet car) on Monday.  At this point, I think I'll be getting it.  My other option is to get there early Monday before they do the paperwork, and swap for a 2015 (36K mi.) Certified SHO they have on the lot.

 

Regarding the bold item above...I don't agree with this. We've had a few reports from high mileage owners who bought used from fleets that never charged the HVB and left them at 0% SoC pretty much their whole life. All of those reports I saw claim like-new capacities. We think the degradation is more related to combinations of high SoC and high temperature.

[jj2me]

Regarding the bold item above...I don't agree with this. We've had a few reports from high mileage owners who bought used from fleets that never charged the HVB and left them at 0% SoC pretty much their whole life. All of those reports I saw claim like-new capacities. We think the degradation is more related to combinations of high SoC and high temperature.

 

Thanks, that's an important correction.  I'm buying a fleet car, 10K miles, probably driven by a FoMoCo employee, so there's a chance I may be golden.  I had been assuming a fleet driver's carelessness would be somehow more damaging.  

 

"We think the degradation is more related to combinations of high SoC and high temperature."  

 

What a great, concise, focal point for those of us (especially new owners like me) trying to forestall HVB degradation.  Thanks.

[Russael]

I'll go on record and say I've yet to have a problem with my 12v battery.  I don't receive the low battery warning at all.  Granted, 2 years after I had purchased the car, I had taken it to the stealership for routine maintenance (oil change, inspection, etc), but I also made them jack the car in to their diagnostic system and check the car for new calibration updates.  The car has 10 modules and every single one had an upgrade.  I paid a pretty penny for it (the stealership says they can't upgrade a module unless there is a warranty concern with it) so I just paid for it, and I haven't had any problems with battery, etc.  I leave the car plugged in when I'm not driving it and I have noticed that the car will automatically engage the EVSE if the 12v starts getting a little low.  I've also experimented with leaving the car unplugged for a solid 7 days and had no problems either.

 

So far, the car has been very reliable for me.  No complaints in that department.

[Blastphemy]

Thanks.  I think I talked myself down off the ledge after reading a lot of battery threads on this site.  There's some great information here.  E.g.,

- charge to 80% is preferred over 100%,

- don't discharge to 0,

- prevent battery heat damage:

---- don't drive fast in EV

---- avoid too much regen on downhills,

---- keep the car itself and battery as cool as possible, etc.

 

I pick up the car (10K miles fleet car) on Monday.  At this point, I think I'll be getting it.  My other option is to get there early Monday before they do the paperwork, and swap for a 2015 (36K mi.) Certified SHO they have on the lot.

 

Dude, ignore everything you wrote above. Just enjoy the car and stop worrying about the battery. You're making assumptions about your car based on older models that may have had problems. Generally the only people who post on these boards are reporting problems. The other tens of thousands of people aren't having those problems, for the most part.

 

You need to understand that you're not driving a BEV (battery-electric vehicle with no gas component). You're driving a plug-in hybrid, so all that nonsense about charging only to 80% and not discharging to 0 is not applicable. If you were driving a Tesla, perhaps those would be concerns, but not a Ford Fusion Energi.

 

Unless you're going to keep your car in EV Later mode all the time (which is a complete waste of gas and undermines the purpose of owning such a car), you're going to have to use the battery. And it doesn't matter whether you drive fast or slow, keep the car cool or hot, or play any other such games. You're not going to notice any discernible difference over the long term. Either the car's battery will lose some capacity over time or it won't.

 

As for "avoiding too much regen on downhills," that's impossible. The moment you press the brake you're in regen; you can't avoid it. And that is also another fundamental point to owning this car - getting "free" extra miles by using "L" and gentle braking whenever possible.

 

Again, don't get yourself worked up over a small percentage drop in battery capacity after 30,000 miles (if any). None of the nonsense quoted above will make any difference. Drive as many EV miles as you can, don't get bent out of shape if the gas engine kicks in when you don't want it to, and drive any speed and in any temperature as you want.

 

The Fusion Energi may not be perfect, but the 2017 (2018?) model year is leaps and bounds better than the earlier versions. You may have an odd complaint here and there, but the car's fundamental operation is sound and proven. If nothing else, enjoy the fact that you'll probably only have to fill up your car 1/4 as often as before (unless your round trip commute is less than 18 miles, in which case you may never put gas in the car again).

[fconway]

Don't let one thread and a minority of problems scare you.  Most of us are extremely pleased with how our vehicles perform, and the glowing reviews you've read bolsters that.  And besides, there is an 8 year, 100k mile warranty on that battery.  Yes, the warranty information is vague, but Ford has replaced people's batteries on several occasions.  Again, considering the number of Energi vehicles (both CMAX and Fusion), that is a very small minority.

This.

if you look at any car on the internet the people with problems weigh much more heavily than the majority who love their cars. go to the Honda Accord forum, and you will find a small group demanding a recall for something or other, while the millions of others happily just drive their cars.

 

I haven't had mine long enough to qualify, but so far i absolutely love my FFE.

[bdginmo]

I'll pile on...I have 32,000 miles and I have little or no degradation of the HVB. I will say that I do avoid charging the car and leave it at 0% SoC pretty much the whole summer.

[jj2me]

Thanks very much, everyone.  I picked up the car on Monday night, and other than that drive home, I only today put my first miles on it, doing the PID and trip display kWh tests, which show almost no use!

 

a1. PID "BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM" of full battery = 7.1 kWh, which is like new per this post:

"For a new battery Energy to Empty would be 5.6 kWh + 1.5 kWh = 7.1 kWh"

 

a2. PID reading at point of battery depletion = 1.5 kWh

7.1 - 1.5 = 5.6 kWh

 

b. kWh reported by trip display at point of battery depletion = 5.5 kWh

 

(Went 26.3 miles on the charge, btw.)

 

So happy with this car.  So lucky with this particular used example.  Very grateful to you all for spending the time to give me all those answers and keep me going.

 

Under the hood, the red cover of the 12V's positive charging post is pulled way back.  Hope they fixed it. 

 

I don't mind taking precautions that might (or might not) forestall battery degradation, so will generally avoid

- full discharge and full charge (like with cell phone batteries):

- "auto manufacturers have found that by staying within a range of 30%-70%, the battery's useful lifespan is practically indefinite" - [per this post]

- On the other hand... the car might be keeping us in a good range already but having the display lie to us, like readings of 100% and 0% are really 80% and 20%, respectively]

- heavy EV use during times of high temps (ambient and running)

- EV use over 40-50 mph (often not under my control)

- charging in below freezing weather (openair's post on p.1)

- Level 2 charging (openair's post on p.1)

 

But there's still the discrepancy between "avoiding 0% charge" and bdginmo's information about fleet drivers not charging yet seeing like-new capacities (jibes with my FFE).  Could this be the explanation: that when the fleet driver hits 0%, he enters "hybrid mode" (a term used in the manual), and perhaps "hybrid mode" means it's using the hybrid reserve part of the battery (~1.5 kWh per this post) and not the 5.6 kWh "HVB available for EV operation" part of the EVB?

 [EDIT: No discrepancy.  Already been answered on page 1 by murphy: "In hybrid mode the computer tries to maintain the hybrid portion of the battery at 50%.  It NEVER goes to 0.  That is exactly the same as the hybrid version of the car."  So 0% SoC refers to the ~5.6 kWh "HVB available for EV operation" part of the EVB, while "hybrid mode" refers to the ~1.5 kWh hybrid reserve part of the EVB.  This also jibes with bdginmo's experiencing little or no battery degradation while adhering to a preventive practice of driving at 0% charge all summer (presuming the "inmo" stands for "in [hot] Missouri").  So based on the information in both of bdginmo's posts, I'm going to take it as an EVB long-term preservation best practice to prefer, in very hot conditions. 0% SoC over manually charging (though at the expense of less MPGe).]

 

My positive overall view of the car, however, is pretty useless to another prospective buyer, because my newest other car is a 1998 Jeep Cherokee (with cassette player).  But yeah, so far, I love the FFE.  It handled great in today's drive.

Edited June 16, 2017 at 07:29 PM by jj2me

[Sandroad]

 

Thanks very much, everyone.  I picked up the car on Monday night, and other than that drive home, I only today put my first miles on it, doing the PID and trip display kWh tests, which show almost no use!

 

a1. PID "BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM" of full battery = 7.1 kWh, which is like new per this post:

"For a new battery Energy to Empty would be 5.6 kWh + 1.5 kWh = 7.1 kWh"

 

a2. PID reading at point of battery depletion = 1.5 kWh

7.1 - 1.5 = 5.6 kWh

 

b. kWh reported by trip display at point of battery depletion = 5.5 kWh

 

(Went 26.3 miles on the charge, btw.)

 

So happy with this car.  So lucky with this particular used example.  Very grateful to you all for spending the time to give me all those answers and keep me going.

 

Under the hood, the red cover of the 12V's positive charging post is pulled way back.  Hope they fixed it. 

 

I don't mind taking precautions that might (or might not) forestall battery degradation, so will generally avoid

- full discharge and full charge (like with cell phone batteries):

- "auto manufacturers have found that by staying within a range of 30%-70%, the battery's useful lifespan is practically indefinite" - [per this post]

- On the other hand... the car might be keeping us in a good range already but having the display lie to us, like readings of 100% and 0% are really 80% and 20%, respectively]

- heavy EV use during times of high temps (ambient and running)

- EV use over 40-50 mph (often not under my control)

- charging in below freezing weather (openair's post on p.1)

- Level 2 charging (openair's post on p.1)

 

But there's still the discrepancy between "avoiding 0% charge" and bdginmo's information about fleet drivers not charging yet seeing like-new capacities (jibes with my FFE).  Could this be the explanation: that when the fleet driver hits 0%, he enters "hybrid mode" (a term used in the manual), and perhaps "hybrid mode" means it's using the hybrid reserve part of the battery (~1.5 kWh per this post) and not the 5.6 kWh "HVB available for EV operation" part of the EVB?  

 

My positive overall view of the car, however, is pretty useless to another prospective buyer, because my newest other car is a 1998 Jeep Cherokee (with cassette player).  But yeah, so far, I love the FFE.  It handled great in today's drive.

 

Way to go! You'll continue loving the car, I bet. I sure like mine and I bought it under very similar circumstances to your purchase. I'm really impressed with the entire system(s) of the car and haven't used the ICE since we brought it home from the dealership last spring! 

 

 

I would, however, caution you to not rely only on Internet posts for your information about battery management. There is a remarkable amount of simply incorrect information out there that gets repeated and eventually treated as fact. Get your info from a reliable source like the owner's manual, manufacturer, or independent trade/consumer magazines with writers paid to get the facts. You may be avoiding actions you don't really need to avoid or not avoiding action that you should avoid which will lessen the cars ability to manage itself and your ability to enjoy the car! I'm just learning about all this myself and the PhD scientist in me is enjoying the hunt for valid and reliable info about this electronic marvel on wheels. 

Edited June 16, 2017 at 01:26 AM by Sandroad

[bdginmo]

 

Thanks very much, everyone.  I picked up the car on Monday night, and other than that drive home, I only today put my first miles on it, doing the PID and trip display kWh tests, which show almost no use!

 

a1. PID "BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM" of full battery = 7.1 kWh, which is like new per this post:

"For a new battery Energy to Empty would be 5.6 kWh + 1.5 kWh = 7.1 kWh"

 

a2. PID reading at point of battery depletion = 1.5 kWh

7.1 - 1.5 = 5.6 kWh

 

b. kWh reported by trip display at point of battery depletion = 5.5 kWh

 

(Went 26.3 miles on the charge, btw.)

 

So happy with this car.  So lucky with this particular used example.  Very grateful to you all for spending the time to give me all those answers and keep me going.

 

Under the hood, the red cover of the 12V's positive charging post is pulled way back.  Hope they fixed it. 

 

I don't mind taking precautions that might (or might not) forestall battery degradation, so will generally avoid

- full discharge and full charge (like with cell phone batteries):

- "auto manufacturers have found that by staying within a range of 30%-70%, the battery's useful lifespan is practically indefinite" - [per this post]

- On the other hand... the car might be keeping us in a good range already but having the display lie to us, like readings of 100% and 0% are really 80% and 20%, respectively]

- heavy EV use during times of high temps (ambient and running)

- EV use over 40-50 mph (often not under my control)

- charging in below freezing weather (openair's post on p.1)

- Level 2 charging (openair's post on p.1)

 

But there's still the discrepancy between "avoiding 0% charge" and bdginmo's information about fleet drivers not charging yet seeing like-new capacities (jibes with my FFE).  Could this be the explanation: that when the fleet driver hits 0%, he enters "hybrid mode" (a term used in the manual), and perhaps "hybrid mode" means it's using the hybrid reserve part of the battery (~1.5 kWh per this post) and not the 5.6 kWh "HVB available for EV operation" part of the EVB?

 [EDIT: No discrepancy.  Already been answered on page 1 by murphy: "In hybrid mode the computer tries to maintain the hybrid portion of the battery at 50%.  It NEVER goes to 0.  That is exactly the same as the hybrid version of the car."  So 0% SoC refers to the ~5.6 kWh "HVB available for EV operation" part of the EVB, while "hybrid mode" refers to the ~1.5 kWh hybrid reserve part of the EVB.  This also jibes with bdginmo's experiencing little or no battery degradation while adhering to a preventive practice of driving at 0% charge all summer (presuming the "inmo" stands for "in [hot] Missouri").  So based on the information in both of bdginmo's posts, I'm going to take it as an EVB long-term preservation best practice to prefer, in very hot conditions. 0% SoC over manually charging (though at the expense of less MPGe).]

 

My positive overall view of the car, however, is pretty useless to another prospective buyer, because my newest other car is a 1998 Jeep Cherokee (with cassette player).  But yeah, so far, I love the FFE.  It handled great in today's drive.

 

 

It sounds like you have an HVB that's in great shape! 

 

When the car displays 100% it is really 98%. At 0% with the "hybrid" portion of the battery full it is about 22%. When the "hybrid" portion is empty it is about 12% I think. So the HVB never gets anywhere close to fully discharging, but it does get close to fully charged. This is why most of us think high SoC and high temperatures together may be the leading cause of degradation. 

 

And yes, I'm in Missouri (St. Louis specifically). I avoid charging altogether from June-August because my electric rates double from $0.06/kwh to $0.12/kwh and because that's the hot season. If the temperature gets too hot in May and September I defer as well. I run hybrid mode only for 3 straight months. It works out well because I get about 48-50 mpg during this time of year anyway. In the winter it'll tank to about 38-40 mpg in hybrid mode.

 

And to clarify on the typical kwh usage...I get about 5.4 kwh at the point when the car switches to hybrid mode. I can get another 0.2-0.3 kwh before the ICE actually kicks on. And the most I've ever achieved on a single charge was 5.9 kwh. The best time to do this test is when the temperature is mild (65-75) and make sure you run the HVB down all in one drive. Parking and letting the vehicle set before continuing the test will alter the result. At 32,000 miles I have little degradation (maybe 0.1 or 0.2 kwh at most).