Battery Life Expectancy

[wcochrane]

Has anyone heard how long (milage or years) the battery is supposed to last before needing replacement in the energi and what the estimated cost would be? When I was considering a Tesla last year, they said the battery life was about 1000,000 miles and the cost to replace the larger battery in the Model S was around $30k but you could buy one at the same time as you purchased the car for about half of that and then get it installed when needed. I drive about 30,000+/- miles a year so replacing the battery on top off the price of the car in the first five years is something I am concerned about. Thanks for any info you all might have heard.

[jeff_h]

I drive about 40k miles per year, and just sold my 2010 Fusion Hybrid last week - it was 3½ years old and had 145k miles and the battery (and the rest of the car) still worked like new.  Before that I had a Prius for 130k miles and sold it to a co-worker, who still drives it to work each day and now at 180k miles the HV battery is still fine.

 

Before I sold it (to a good friend) I replaced the 12V battery as routine maintenance before handing it over, and so I went onto fordparts.com to look up the battery from there.  The HV battery was also listed there for $4,300 (I think), don't know if that would also require other ancillary items to also be purchased or what the labor cost would be to replace it, but it wasn't $30k!  Also as the number of these cars grows, there would likely be HV batteries available from salvage yards from totalled vehicles for probably a lot less, for those who would want to go that route.

 

So when purchasing one of these types of cars, I personally don't put too much stock into the worries about HV batteries going bad and needing big bucks to replace.  Of course it can happen, but the same can be said for any major component.

[rprobst]

When I was considering a Tesla last year, they said the battery life was about 1000,000 miles and the cost to replace the larger battery in the Model S was around $30k ...

 

"1000,000 miles"? Typo? Or did they really say one million?

 

If it's a million miles, I would replace any car before that. If they said 100,000 miles and then you have to spend $30k, then I'm afraid Tesla will never get over being a rich man's toy.

 

Fusion Energi looks like the first truly mainstream plug-in. Volt was self-consciously niche.

[wcochrane]

Opps, should have been 100,000.

[ChuckJ]

I think the hybrid is warranted for 8 years and if the Energi is not, it's a deal killer for me.

 

ChuckJ

[energifan]

This site says it's the 8yr/100,000 mile

http://www.myfusionenergi.com/ford-fusion-energi-warranty

[ChuckJ]

This site says it's the 8yr/100,000 mile

http://www.myfusionenergi.com/ford-fusion-energi-warranty

I suspected that.  Thanks for finding it energifan.

 

ChuckJ

[pluggedin]

Here is a link to the 2013 Model Year Ford Hybrid Car and Electric Vehicle Warranty Guide. This should include the Energi, even though it doesn't specifically say so: http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/2013HybridWarranty.pdf. Please note it is in an .pdf format. Pay particular attention to pages 21 and 22.

 

Basically, if you live in California, or any state that has adopted and enforces California emissions, the ion battery warranty will be 10 years/150,000 miles. Those of the rest of us humps who live in states other than California or the other qualifying states (see page 22 for a list of the those states and the requirements you must meet) will receive a lessor 8 year/100,000 mile warranty.

 

The warranty I mentioned here only pertains to the ion battery only. Anything going to or coming from the battery carries a different warranty schedule and they are listed separately. Or at least that's the way it appears to me.

 

The difference in battery warranty that is based on the state in which you live seems inequitable and discriminatory to me. For me, one size should fit all. But I will give up 2 years/50,000 miles to not have to live in the land of the fruits and nuts...and I was born and raised there.

[Mr. Fusion]

There's great stories of Taxi Prius's and Escapes that are forced to be retired at 300,000, yet have zero hybrid issues.

 

At least for the Escape, they're so conservative with the range of battery (Between 35% and 55%) state of charge, that the wear and tear on these things can easily make it to the 150,000 mile warranty.

[ChuckJ]

There's great stories of Taxi Prius's and Escapes that are forced to be retired at 300,000, yet have zero hybrid issues.

 

At least for the Escape, they're so conservative with the range of battery (Between 35% and 55%) state of charge, that the wear and tear on these things can easily make it to the 150,000 mile warranty.

But the Energi is bound to use a much broader range, so wouldn't that reduce battery life?

 

ChuckJ

[Mr. Fusion]

But the Energi is bound to use a much broader range, so wouldn't that reduce battery life?

 

ChuckJ

Maybe they did the same thing with the Energi... Sized it big, just to use a smaller part??

 

Maybe it's a totally different story with Li-ion vs. NiMH.

 

We need someone to put a Scan Gauge on a C-Max Energi to see what's going on with the State of Charge.

[ChuckJ]

Maybe they did the same thing with the Energi... Sized it big, just to use a smaller part??

 

Maybe it's a totally different story with Li-ion vs. NiMH.

 

We need someone to put a Scan Gauge on a C-Max Energi to see what's going on with the State of Charge.

I've got an electric motorcycle and the data I got shows that LifePo4 life goes down as a function of drain and overcharge also (more if you get it down past 25% than if you charge it up to 90%.  

 

ChuckJ

[DelS]

Here is a link to the 2013 Model Year Ford Hybrid Car and Electric Vehicle Warranty Guide. This should include the Energi, even though it doesn't specifically say so: http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/2013HybridWarranty.pdf. Please note it is in an .pdf format. Pay particular attention to pages 21 and 22.

 

Basically, if you live in California, or any state that has adopted and enforces California emissions, the ion battery warranty will be 10 years/150,000 miles. Those of the rest of us humps who live in states other than California or the other qualifying states (see page 22 for a list of the those states and the requirements you must meet) will receive a lessor 8 year/100,000 mile warranty.

 

The warranty I mentioned here only pertains to the ion battery only. Anything going to or coming from the battery carries a different warranty schedule and they are listed separately. Or at least that's the way it appears to me.

 

The difference in battery warranty that is based on the state in which you live seems inequitable and discriminatory to me. For me, one size should fit all. But I will give up 2 years/50,000 miles to not have to live in the land of the fruits and nuts...and I was born and raised there.

It makes sense to warranty the battery longer for us in California-- it's better for us lowly consumers, and Cali standards probably make the standards better for you even way out there in Arizona, which is one of the main points.  Just like our stringent air standards drag less and less pollution east of L.A. towards Tucson.   And you should be happy, for most probably, your better battery.    I heard it's nice down there in Tucson, but at least the university is good.  ;-) 

[pluggedin]

It makes sense to warranty the battery longer for us in California-- it's better for us lowly consumers, and Cali standards probably make the standards better for you even way out there in Arizona, which is one of the main points.  Just like our stringent air standards drag less and less pollution east of L.A. towards Tucson.   And you should be happy, for most probably, your better battery.    I heard it's nice down there in Tucson, but at least the university is good.  ;-) 

Yeah, I'm just jealous because I would like the benefit of the 2 year/50K warranty too. Don't take the California bashing too seriously, I had a great time growing up on the beaches in Long Beach and Huntington Beach. Schools were good there as well. :wub:

[FusionEnergi]

I bought my 2004 civic hybrid new in alaska. Had it there for 2 and a half years then took it to new mexico for 2 and a half years. Have had it here in virginia ever since and have not noticed any battery loss or issues. I figure the new batteries are made even better. I wouldnt be surprised to get 15-20 years out of it.

[bobk]

Page 11 (Note: Lithium-Ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss) is a concern also, however I would have expected any HV manufacturer to include such wording.

 

I think that Ford should clarify what level of capacity loss is expected at various points in time, and therefore will not be convered under warranty. To say "8 years/100000 miles" or whatever may mislead - people may be under the impression that their battery will still get them 21 miles or whatever it is every time after 8 years, when it actually won't. And the problem is that that then becomes a problem for some people who operate at the high end of that rage and rely on the full capacity to go full-electric for their daily commute, they will then need to possibly have them replaced at their own cost, prior to the warranty period expiration. Positive anecdotal evidence like the above is appreciated and reassuring but obviously Ford had to base the 8/100K on something and that's the science I'd like to see (graduated as EE but have been writing software for 20 years).

 

Edit: I realize that all parts, including HV batteries, in all cars, are subject to "normal" wear and tear, and that any part can fail at any time. However current car engineering is mature enough where (given usage pattern) we can generally predict average lifespans of components that undergo a lot of duty cycles, whether they are break pads, fan belts or (I hope) LiIon batteries.

Edited February 6, 2013 at 09:33 PM by bobk

[ChuckJ]

I've never heard of a manufacturer not honoring their battery warranty.  I'm not sure that people won't be getting 25-30 miles per charge at first reducing to 21 by the time it's 8 years old.  We'll have to see.

 

ChuckJ

[shaggy314]

Ask Nissan Leaf owner's...

 

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/12/27/nissan-leaf-battery-warranty-upgraded-first-capacity-loss/

[bobk]

Thanks for the replies. ChuckJ, I wasn't suggesting that Ford wouldn't honor the warranty as written, for problems that are covered by it.  But capacity loss, as Ford has defined it but has not communicated out specifics of (yet), appears not to be covered by them, but is (now) covered by Nissan. Not sure where the 25-30 comes from as 21 is the published number as I understand it and I doubt that's the low end.

 

My concern is that other manufacturers appear to be able to put somewhat more structure around what is and is not covered by "capacity loss", so it would be good if Ford could do the same, prior to large numbers of people purchasing the vehicle. I'm trying to figure out whether this is too big of an unknown for me or not. In the absence of any numbers from Ford I may have to use Nissan's predictions as a guide.

Edited February 7, 2013 at 01:36 AM by bobk

[pluggedin]

Thanks for the replies. ChuckJ, I wasn't suggesting that Ford wouldn't honor the warranty as written, for problems that are covered by it.  But capacity loss, as Ford has defined it but has not communicated out specifics of (yet), appears not to be covered by them, but is (now) covered by Nissan. Not sure where the 25-30 comes from as 21 is the published number as I understand it and I doubt that's the low end.

 

My concern is that other manufacturers appear to be able to put somewhat more structure around what is and is not covered by "capacity loss", so it would be good if Ford could do the same, prior to large numbers of people purchasing the vehicle. I'm trying to figure out whether this is too big of an unknown for me or not. In the absence of any numbers from Ford I may have to use Nissan's predictions as a guide.

Those of us who have had our Energi on order since Oct/Nov are painfully aware that Ford has been really stingy with releasing ANY information about this car, much less it's battery. We still don't know how it will be cooled.

 

In time all of that information will come out but Ford is just not going to show its cards until they are played...apparently. It's harder for their competition to hit a moving target, so to speak.

 

Capacity loss is such a subjective term, in relationship to battery performance. I mean, there are many different variables that can have an effect on a battery and its ability to maintain a full charge over time.

 

As an example, when I bought my golf cart six years ago replacement batteries for the cart ran about $500 (for 6). Today they cost around $900 (price of lead went up). The warranty, six years ago, was 36 months, now it's 18 months. And I am lucky to get 18 months out of them.

 

Heat is a killer of batteries and the beating they take driving to a from the course and the beating they take while on the golf course are all reasons for the rapid degradation of the batteries but the heat here in the desert is the main culprit. Even my car battery doesn't last that long here.

 

So where you are and how you drive the car, and maintain it, will all come into play concerning capacity loss over time. If you drive in a hilly region in the heat you will be a lot harder on the battery than someone who drives on flat ground in a mild climate. How would Ford gauge that for you?

 

The good news for us is that Ford is cooling their batteries in some way unknown to us at this time but they have taken ambient  temperature into consideration when putting the car together. Or so I read.

 

And then there is all of the experience that Toyota (with the Prius) and other manufactures have had with their batteries over the past decade, or so, and their record has been pretty impressive. Other wise I might not be looking to buy a plug in hybrid.

[bobk]

Thanks for taking the time to post a thoughtful reply.

 

> How would Ford gauge that for you?

> So where you are and how you drive the car, and maintain it, will all come into play concerning capacity loss over time.

 

I think my argument here is that they must have done some (hopefully a lot) predictive testing, made *some* assumptions and done some math - at least I hope so - in order to come up with the figure of 8 years. They could put out ranges for different usage profiles - it doesn't have to be one answer that covers everyone. Battery life numbers might be competitive advantages and perhaps slightly political but AFAIK they are not a single EPA-regulated number that has to be calc'ed and communicated a certain way.

 

I agree that you can't pin it down to N decimal places but I don't think it's completely unknowable either. For gas vehicles they must make assumptions and perform testing with standard usage profiles. I would think that you could make some simplifying assumptions. And if doing a lot of hilly driving in the heat was going to have a material impact on battery life, I would sure want them to do the science needed to know what they were in for, in terms of arranging contracts for large numbers of OEM replacement batteries to be produced as the cars start to mature. The only thing that would be worse than finding out (in say 2019) your batteries need replacement would be to find out that there's a 2-3 month lead time because they under-predicted replacement rates.

 

Actually your "cards close to the chest" idea makes the most sense to me, given what I know so far.

 

> and other manufactures have had with their batteries over the past decade

 

As for battery experience, I agree a decade of it is great - but LiIon chemistry is newer than NiMH - the bulk of road-years on all EVs to date has still been NiMH, please correct me if not.

Edited February 7, 2013 at 01:40 PM by bobk

[pluggedin]

Ford is putting the equivalent of 10 years and 150,000 miles of wear and tear on hybrid vehicle batteries using a new lab test that takes less than a year to complete.

 

View the full article

 

 

> and other manufactures have had with their batteries over the past decade

 

As for battery experience, I agree a decade of it is great - but LiIon chemistry is newer than NiMH - the bulk of road-years on all EVs to date has still been NiMH, please correct me if not.

bobk, the link to an article, above, that is buried under a thread in Fusion Energi Discussion: Ford Super Sticker News may help you belay some of your anxiety about LiIon batteries, in general. It doesn't answer some of your more technical questions though.

[bobk]

Thanks for finding that - it does go a good ways towards helping me understand the types and depth of testing.

 

That said - given that they have done that large amount of testing, I am even more suprised and concerned that they can't put any numbers around the expected capacity loss, and what they will and will not cover under warranty for that, similar to what Nissan has done.

 

If the theory is that they are holding back and waiting for a while longer for competitive purposes, then fine so be it, I guess I can give them the benefit of the doubt and wait for a while.

 

Thanks

Edited February 7, 2013 at 03:35 PM by bobk

[TX NRG]

Those of us who have had our Energi on order since Oct/Nov are painfully aware that Ford has been really stingy with releasing ANY information about this car, much less it's battery. We still don't know how it will be cooled.

 

Per the Ford Engineer in this video it will be cabin air-cooled with fans moving air from the rear deck inlets down through battery area and out below the rear seats. Mentioned somewhere around the 17 minute mark.

 

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/5984-video-with-ford-fusion-hybrid-engineer/

 

Also, the FFH Energi will have electric heater and MyFord Mobile update will support scheduled charging for FFH and Cmax Energis in next 2 months when the FFH Energi is available.

[pluggedin]

Per the Ford Engineer in this video it will be cabin air-cooled with fans moving air from the rear deck inlets down through battery area and out below the rear seats. Mentioned somewhere around the 17 minute mark. http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/5984-video-with-ford-fusion-hybrid-engineer/ Also, the FFH Energi will have electric heater and MyFord Mobile update will support scheduled charging for FFH and Cmax Energis in next 2 months when the FFH Energi is available.

Thanks for this video TX NRG. What the Ford Engineer said is completely different from the rumors I've heard. My understanding, until this morning, was that the Energi batteries would be both air and liquid cooled. However, since he is the Joe in the know, I will take his word for how the batteries are cooled.

 

That does concern me a little though because road temps in the desert can easily approach 140-150 degrees in the summer and I have never been impressed with the A/C cooling systems in American made cars. The Japanese seem to do a much better job with their A/C, in particular.

 

So the A/C and heating system in the Fusion is going to have to be pretty beefed up, in my humble opinion, to handle keeping the occupants in the cab cool/warm AND do the same for the LiIon batteries.

 

On one of the posts in the C-Max Energi Forum, the author mentioned he heard fans running after he parked his car in his garage and shut the car off. What he was told was the fans for the batteries will continue to run, even with the ignition off, until the batteries tell the fans I'm cool now. If the car is plugged in at that time the fans should not draw the needed current from the battery though.