Battery Degradation

[justindthomas]

Okay, I'm at a bit of a loss.  I've had my 2014 Fusion Energi in to the Ford dealership for weeks over the last few months diagnosing the EV battery. My experience is that it's getting about 12 miles on a full charge (down from 22 when we originally purchased it in 2014). They tell me that's unusual.

So after (literally) weeks of testing the battery at various percentages that Ford HQ has asked them to provide, they tell me that it's getting 17 or 18 miles on a charge and that's about right. Well, sure that would totally be about right for a 2 year old car, but that doesn't match the reality I experience in any way.

 

I began wondering if maybe the display was just off (where I've not seen it greater than 13 miles in the last year, and more recently 12 or less due to the cold weather). So I mapped out my usual commute on Google maps and picked the spot where I generally run out of battery. 11.6 miles. And this is generally flat driving - a bit of a downward slope if anything because I live on a hill and starting out is downhill.

 

Now I'm wondering if they're just flat lying to me. Do I need to sue them? This is infuriating. I don't see any pending class-action suits on this, but I feel like I can't be the only one.

 

In the grand scheme of things, it seems silly to get worked up about something like this. But I just really feel like someone's lying to me to avoid doing the right thing (i.e., replace the battery under warranty - I also have ESP on the car). My experience with my Ford dealership has generally been positive.

[murphy]

What is your ambient temperature?  With temperatures around freezing here I typically get about half of the miles I get in the summer, especially if the heat is turned on.

[justindthomas]

At the moment it's freezing (around 31). But they began testing the battery back in August when temperatures where around 100. The range when I brought it to their attention was no more than 14.

 

The process for testing involves:

 

1. The dealership charging the battery to full.

2. Having one of their technicians driving it until it hits a certain percentage.

3. Recording some information and relaying it to Ford HQ.

4. Repeat until HQ is happy.

 

It seems that it's very error-prone. I was told they'd get it to 50% in the entrance to their facility and it would drop to 48% by the time they got it to the garage, so they'd have to start over. I went through several weeks of just bringing it in every morning and having them do their thing.

 

In early September, they said they wanted to be done with it and just had it in for a week and gave me a loaner. They did what they needed and reported what they had to HQ. Then they went radio silent for 6 weeks (people were out sick, or on vacation, etc.) When I finally got someone to pay attention, they said the previous testing turned out to be invalid and they needed to do it again. So they've had my car for the last week and a half.

 

Yesterday they called and said everything is normal and they're getting 17-18 miles on the battery (apparently even in freezing conditions). It just seems incredible to me.

[dlb92]

Class action info:

 

email capstone law group: Karla.Rubalcava@capstonelawyers.com

 

There are many people that have called in but they need more.

 

Just search on the cmax energi forum and there are entire threads about it.

Edited December 8, 2016 at 10:13 PM by dlb92

[bdginmo]

What is the kwh you're getting from a full charge to the point hybrid mode kicks in?

[justindthomas]

What is the kwh you're getting from a full charge to the point hybrid mode kicks in?

 

It looks like (based on the Ford Mobile app) 4.6kWh (0.7 kWh on one trip, and 3.9 kWh on another). EV miles on those trips are 1.3 miles and 7.1 miles, respectively. My car was frozen in the dealership's outdoor lot, so it's not surprising that the mileage was low (I was running defrost on high). But dang, 8.4 miles on EV is pretty sad.

 

I'll charge it up tonight and see what I get off of a full charge to depletion on a single trip tomorrow.

[bdginmo]

It looks like (based on the Ford Mobile app) 4.6kWh (0.7 kWh on one trip, and 3.9 kWh on another). EV miles on those trips are 1.3 miles and 7.1 miles, respectively. My car was frozen in the dealership's outdoor lot, so it's not surprising that the mileage was low (I was running defrost on high). But dang, 8.4 miles on EV is pretty sad.

 

I'll charge it up tonight and see what I get off of a full charge to depletion on a single trip tomorrow.

 

4.6 is not horrible at least for cold weather. Yeah, charge it up and see what you get tomorrow.

 

Edit: I meant to say "not horrible". I changed the wording.

Edited December 10, 2016 at 10:17 PM by bdginmo

[dlb92]

lol, after 3 years I'm getting 4.0Kwh, get used to it.

[Timewellspent]

I'm getting 4.4 kWh on a charge right now.  Car will be two years old in January.  My car gives an estimated 19 mile range, but if I kick the heat on it will drop off 5-6 mile range.  Doing a remote start to warm up the car is going to take range off too.  What kind of brake and driving score are you getting (are you driving like Mario Andretti or Grandpa Jones).

[openair]

4.6 is expected this time of year with a two year old vehicle. I get 5.0 at best in the summer. I think you're wasting your time op. Miles is far too variable to judge anything from. KWh is best. 12 miles at 70mph is 18 at 35mph.

 

These tests Ford is doing over and over are also a sham to appease you and the dealer. If Ford wanted to replace the battery they could very easily account for 2% variance between current state of change and the state of charge they want the test performed.

Edited December 9, 2016 at 06:34 PM by openair

[mikieg]

Hoping that reviving this thread will get more people involved. I have a 2014 Fusion Energi and for the first 2.5 years I consistently got 22 miles per charge, even way down here in South Florida. Two and a half years into ownership, the range went down almost overnight to 18 miles and has been on a downward trend since. When new the battery charged to 5.8 Kwh and now I can't squeeze more than 3.7. Also, full charging used to take two hours, ten minutes and now it's about an hour twenty five.

 

Ford keeps telling me that it's normal degradation. Sorry, I don't think nearly 50% in 2.5 years is normal. As of now the car has a measly 30,000 miles.

 

Anybody else have similar experiences?

[jsamp]

Hoping that reviving this thread will get more people involved. I have a 2014 Fusion Energi and for the first 2.5 years I consistently got 22 miles per charge, even way down here in South Florida. Two and a half years into ownership, the range went down almost overnight to 18 miles and has been on a downward trend since. When new the battery charged to 5.8 Kwh and now I can't squeeze more than 3.7. Also, full charging used to take two hours, ten minutes and now it's about an hour twenty five.

 

Ford keeps telling me that it's normal degradation. Sorry, I don't think nearly 50% in 2.5 years is normal. As of now the car has a measly 30,000 miles.

 

Anybody else have similar experiences?

 

First of all, all batteries are going to degrade over time.  This is true for your phone, laptop, and car.  Typically it is slow loss over time and one day you realize it.  I'm not sure why yours seemed so sudden.

 

Unfortunately what you are seeing is fairly common.  Depending on your usage profile (driving habits on EV, heater use, charging patterns, etc.) this kind of degradation is possible.  If you look through older threads on battery life, there are many hints on how to prevent this loss, however none of them get back what you've already lost.

 

High usage of the battery, either due to multiple charges per day, or driving in EV on the freeway, or using the heater when in EV mode, all cause heavy use of the battery, which degrades it faster.  Also, high temps and leaving it at 100% charge for long periods have a negative affect.  Avoiding or limiting these activities will reduce the degradation, but won't stop or reverse it.

 

In regards to Ford's response, in their eyes you have lost ~27% of your battery in over 4+ years, because they look at loss relative to the overall battery size (2.1/7.6).  So in their view it is "normal degradation"

 

I wish I had better news for you.

[mikieg]

First of all, all batteries are going to degrade over time.  This is true for your phone, laptop, and car.  Typically it is slow loss over time and one day you realize it.  I'm not sure why yours seemed so sudden.

 

Unfortunately what you are seeing is fairly common.  Depending on your usage profile (driving habits on EV, heater use, charging patterns, etc.) this kind of degradation is possible.  If you look through older threads on battery life, there are many hints on how to prevent this loss, however none of them get back what you've already lost.

 

High usage of the battery, either due to multiple charges per day, or driving in EV on the freeway, or using the heater when in EV mode, all cause heavy use of the battery, which degrades it faster.  Also, high temps and leaving it at 100% charge for long periods have a negative affect.  Avoiding or limiting these activities will reduce the degradation, but won't stop or reverse it.

 

In regards to Ford's response, in their eyes you have lost ~27% of your battery in over 4+ years, because they look at loss relative to the overall battery size (2.1/7.6).  So in their view it is "normal degradation"

 

I wish I had better news for you.

 

Living is South Florida we obviously don't use the heat at all, but A/C use is year round and realize it takes away from the overall range.

 

I first reported the degradation when the car was 2.5 years old, so the calculation shouldn't be based on 4+ years.

 

I'd be curious to know what kind of range you are getting on your Fusion and how many miles you have.

Edited November 1, 2018 at 06:39 PM by mikieg

[jsamp]

Mine is a 2015 that I bought CPO a little over a year ago.  Since then I've put 17k miles on it.  It now has just shy of 61k miles and today I did the battery capacity test.  Starting out the car estimated I'd get 26 miles.  I got 28.5 miles and 5.5kWh to hybrid mode.  So almost no battery degradation in 60k miles.

 

I do, however baby my battery.  My typical commute is 36 miles round trip, and all but 1.5 miles of that is freeway.  I only charge once a day, so I do ~20-22 miles on EV and the rest on gas.  I only use EV on the freeway for cruising, not for accelerating, and I only use heat when the gas engine is running (or preconditioning when plugged in).  Climate here is mild so only some heat in the morning during winter and rarely ever use AC.  I typically charge to 85-90% and get home with about 5-10% left.  So it is very rare that my battery ever sees 100% or 0% by the screen.  

[bdginmo]

Mine is a 2015 that I bought CPO a little over a year ago.  Since then I've put 17k miles on it.  It now has just shy of 61k miles and today I did the battery capacity test.  Starting out the car estimated I'd get 26 miles.  I got 28.5 miles and 5.5kWh to hybrid mode.  So almost no battery degradation in 60k miles.

 

I do, however baby my battery.  My typical commute is 36 miles round trip, and all but 1.5 miles of that is freeway.  I only charge once a day, so I do ~20-22 miles on EV and the rest on gas.  I only use EV on the freeway for cruising, not for accelerating, and I only use heat when the gas engine is running (or preconditioning when plugged in).  Climate here is mild so only some heat in the morning during winter and rarely ever use AC.  I typically charge to 85-90% and get home with about 5-10% left.  So it is very rare that my battery ever sees 100% or 0% by the screen.  

 

I realize 5.6 kwh is considered to be the non-hybrid portion, but mine was only 5.5 kwh when I drove it off the lot. So yeah, you basically have a like-new HVB still. Much of the same for me. I get 5.3 or 5.4 kwh at 57,000 miles so I've seen very little degradation as well. Like you I baby the HVB at least in terms of temperature. I do have over 400 cycles on it though. 

[RickEnergi]

As we're new to the Energi, and my wife drives it as her vehicle (I have an F-150), where is it that you find the kWh that the battery has?  

 

Also, am I the only person that has issues with the vehicle Value Charging properly?  

[murphy]

The battery is 7.6 kWh.

 

5.6 kWh for electric only driving

1.5 kWh for hybrid mode

0.5 kWh reserved so battery can never be completely discharged.

 

My electricity costs the same 24/7/365 so I have never tried to use value charge.

[jsamp]

As we're new to the Energi, and my wife drives it as her vehicle (I have an F-150), where is it that you find the kWh that the battery has?  

 

Also, am I the only person that has issues with the vehicle Value Charging properly?  

 

The only way that I know of to see current battery charge level in kWh is to have a PID code reader plugged in.  The trip odometers tell you how much you used, so I reset it when I want to do a test.  Also, on my 2015 anyway, whenever I shut off the car it tells me on the left screen what the kWh used for that last driving session was.

 

Value charging can be buggy.  People have had issues with it staying on.  Usually when I've had a problem it was operator error, as in I forgot to press "save" when I made a change.  What is it doing on you?  Are you programming it on the car screen or MFM?

[RickEnergi]

Thanks for the reply.  There is no way my wife is going to write down anything when she ends a trip...   ;)

 

I have not yet plugged in my OBDII adapter, which I have from using FORScan on my F-150 (I won't be using FORScan on the Energi).  I will plug it in this weekend and see what I can see with various apps, any recommendations for an app?

 

Re, ValueCharge - I attempted to set my home location with a Value Charge profile.  Ran into numerous issues, ended up contacting MyFord Mobile support which created a case and had a US-based (initial Philippines-based support was a waste of time) agent contact me.  They basically are clueless also.  In short, had to create a plan based on time, because no utility plans come through regardless of zip code in the area including that of Ford HQ (which is in their online video).  Despite this, it was charging before the Value Charge period.  Ended up that going to the car and playing around triggered it to sync up and then it worked.  It is not a modem issue, since I can find location every time, and I can see how far it's driven, etc.

 

So we thought we had it set (although I figured if I changed it it wouldn't take again).  Value charge period is 7PM - 11AM, i.e. peak time is 11AM - 7PM.  So I want no charging at peak unless I change it to Charge Now.

 

Yesterday, went out in the morning, and came back around 8:30.  Plugged it in, and it started to charge.  Good.  Showed a completion time of a little after 8PM.  Makes sense, because it should charge to 11AM, STOP charging, then start again at 7PM.  Completion estimates are way long even though I use regular wall charger.  Battery was at 38% or so, so it wasn't so low that it should charge regardless (I read that somewhere).  

 

At 11:20 went to garage and it was charging when it should not be.  Makes no sense, should have stopped.

[jj2me]

I don't recommend Torque Pro. Although it's great once you program in the PIDs, by default it causes major problems if you have it connecting at startup (the OBD2 dongle plugged in and your phone within Bluetooth range when you push the car's On button). It's some sort of collision with the car's electronics when it tries to discover the comm protocol. The result is the FFE emitting chimes and warning lights and not running.

 

There is a workaround of determining the protocol outside of startup and entering that in Torque Pro instead of automatic discovery. But the disruption was so bad for me that I've only tested that workaround once, and pretty much always unplug the dongle after shutdown.

[mikieg]

I realize 5.6 kwh is considered to be the non-hybrid portion, but mine was only 5.5 kwh when I drove it off the lot. So yeah, you basically have a like-new HVB still. Much of the same for me. I get 5.3 or 5.4 kwh at 57,000 miles so I've seen very little degradation as well. Like you I baby the HVB at least in terms of temperature. I do have over 400 cycles on it though. 

 

Absolutely incredulous, that's the only word that comes to mind. I can't believe that you have nearly twice as much mileage as me yet most of your battery capacity. I contacted a law firm that is looking for plaintiffs to start a class action suit against Ford. Maybe that will get their attention.

Edited November 7, 2018 at 05:21 PM by mikieg

[Davidoo]

Absolutely incredulous, that's the only word that comes to mind. I can't believe that you have nearly twice as much mileage as me yet most of your battery capacity. I contacted a law firm that is looking for plaintiffs to start a class action suit against Ford. Maybe that will get their attention.

 

I agree with you.  I have a 2017 with 19,000 miles and I only get 4.9 per charge.  Yes, I live in Phoenix and it's hot 10 months a year, but still, when I got the car, they never told me anything about the electric portion of the car would deteriorate so much, so quickly.  They never gave me any hints such as not charging when it is hot or freeway driving.  Would anyone accept this for a ICE only vehicle and find out that each year your gas mileage will go down, or the horsepower of the engine will lose 20% after 2 years, but they won't do anything about it?  The other side of this is that now, with cooler weather here and no a/c most of the time, I still can get almost 30 miles on a charge if I drive gently.  And I'm a fan of Ford and never buy anything else.  I'm sure this isn't exclusive to them for EVs.  My father retired from Ford and I have worked there before and I wouldn't buy anything else.  Just odd to me that it is acceptable to "lose" part of your engine or power ability so fast in less than 20,000 miles.  

[4cylinder]

'17 here, built in October '16 and bought with 7,800 miles, now at 17,000 miles. Battery still behaves like-new and the Detroit area does get extreme heat AND cold.

 

Unfortunately I'm guessing Ford has put some fine print disavowing responsibility for abnormal battery degradation, and given that the car is technically still perfectly usable it'll be hard to build a case. 

[jsamp]

Absolutely incredulous, that's the only word that comes to mind. I can't believe that you have nearly twice as much mileage as me yet most of your battery capacity. I contacted a law firm that is looking for plaintiffs to start a class action suit against Ford. Maybe that will get their attention.

 

I wish you luck, I really do, but I don't hold high hopes for you.  There was a huge discussion starting back in 2015 about this. Read a couple of threads like this one:

https://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/3762-battery-capacity-30k-miles-horrible/ They also went the route of class action lawsuit, but we never heard the outcome.

Someone did get their battery replaced see:

http://fordcmaxenergiforum.com/topic/4704-energi-hv-battery-replaced-under-warranty/ 

But most others who tried the same were not so lucky an only gained frustration.  Maybe you can contact users 'mipmapped' or 'dlb92' to find out more.

 

Good luck.

[mikieg]

I wish you luck, I really do, but I don't hold high hopes for you.  There was a huge discussion starting back in 2015 about this. Read a couple of threads like this one:

https://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/3762-battery-capacity-30k-miles-horrible/ They also went the route of class action lawsuit, but we never heard the outcome.

Someone did get their battery replaced see:

http://fordcmaxenergiforum.com/topic/4704-energi-hv-battery-replaced-under-warranty/ 

But most others who tried the same were not so lucky an only gained frustration.  Maybe you can contact users 'mipmapped' or 'dlb92' to find out more.

 

Good luck.

 

I read the second link and reading down the page I saw responses identical to mine, how all Ford does is respond with "there are no codes therefore there is nothing wrong with the battery", the exact response that's on my latest service order. Posters there are complaining that they are seeing 4.1kwh capacity while mine is down to 3.8.

 

Like I've said before, I would expect normal degradation, but not 47% in three years.