To buy or not to buy.. End of lease question

[Platinum15Ti]

I still have a while on my lease and really like the car. It's been problem free, but with only 13,000 miles, I already notice a decrease in the range with a full charge. Last year, it was common to see 30-32 miles. This year, even on the hottest days, the most I've seen is 26, but I'd say most days it's 24.

 

For those with high miles, what type of range do you see?

 

Has anyone replaced batteries? If so, what does something like that cost?

[jeff_h]

I don't battery replacements would be needed for failures as from what I have read they are very rare, but if you wanted to get a nice new one with full range I guess you could do it.  But that may mean spending thousands for a few more miles of EV range, and if you're going to take a $$ hit then it may be better to just turn the car back in and go with another new one.

 

When I got my 2013 Energi in 2013, a full run on EV would show anywhere from 5.1-5.7 kWh on the MFM stats for the driving activity - when I sold it with 65k miles it would normally report a full run using maybe 4.2-4.4 kWh so that's not a huge hit but not negligible either.

 

And the same has now occurred with my wife's 2013 Energi after having 3 years and 51k miles, used to show 5.1-5.7 kWh on the MFM stats for a full run on the driving activity, now shows 4.0-4.2 kWh - which is slightly more degradation and I think a pitfall of using these type of batteries and going through a full charge twice per day on a regular basis.

 

So if it were me in your situation, I'd probably turn in the leased car and get a 2016 with very good discounts right now, or a 2017 with the better range.

[meyersnole]

I also have a 2013 and have noticed a bit more degradation, I only have 39,000 miles but a good amount of time I only run on the batteries and charge whenever it is in the garage on a L2 charger. I rack up some mileage on trips a few times a year.

 

I don't usually run the battery all the way down before charging, but when I do I am also in the ~4.2 kWh range. There are only a couple local trips that cause the engine to turn on, but when it does I am still getting good gas mileage so I still feel pretty good about it.

 

Never really thought about battery replacement unless there was a serious price drop. 

[flyingcheesehead]

I don't usually run the battery all the way down before charging, but when I do I am also in the ~4.2 kWh range.

 

Wow... That seems really bad, considering new it should be close to 6 kWh! That would seem to indicate your capacity has dropped by 25% in only 39,000 miles! What kind of EV range are you getting?

 

Larry's recent data about heat and high SoC causing the fastest degradation along with your "US Southern" has me thinking you're probably a fairly extreme case... But now I kinda feel the need to run my battery down and see what I'm getting too, as I also charge 2x/day during the week. I seem to be doing quite well range-wise though, 25+ miles in the nice temps we're seeing now. I've even managed to get over 30 EV miles before the ICE kicks in a couple of times! 2015, 19,000 miles.

[meyersnole]

I usually take shorter trips, so that is a hard question to answer.

 

I think I get about ~24 miles with mixed 30/45/55 mph driving in traffic... plenty of stop go with the AC off. If it turn it on its prob 18 or less if it is really hot out. But the temps are getting bad now. When the weather is nice (70s) the range predictor is around 26, but that is not driving more than 45mph. 

 

Car is fully charged now and claiming 24 on the range... use to read between 28-32 frequently. 

[larryh]

This is from the Nissan LEAF owners manual:

 

The capacity of the Li-ion battery in your vehicle to hold a charge will, like all such batteries, decrease with time and usage.  As the battery ages and capacity decreases, this will result in a decrease in the vehicle's initial mileage range.  This is normal, expected, and not indicative of any defect in your Li-ion battery.  Nissan estimates that battery capacity will be approximately 80% of original capacity after five years, although this is only an estimate, and this percentage may vary (and could be significantly lower) depending on individual vehicle and Li-ion battery usage.

 

Note that the battery chemistry in the LEAF, Volt, and Energi and all similar.    For the Energi, the original usable capacity of the HVB is 7.2 kWh.  80% of that is 5.8 kWh.  The car will not allow you to discharge the HVB below 1.0 kWh.  In addition, the car generally charges the HVB to between 97% and 98%.  The maximum amount of energy you will get out of the HVB at 80% of original capacity is approximately 4.6 kWh.  The following table indicates the approximate amounts of energy you will get out of the HVB for various degradation levels:

 

0% - 5.9 kWh

5% - 5.6 kWh

10% - 5.3 kWh

15% - 4.9 kWh

20% - 4.6 kWh

25% - 4.2 kWh

30% - 3.8 kWh

 

I am at 5% - 5.6 kWh after 3 years.  

 

Also note that the Leaf has a 30 kWh battery, which is four times the size of the Energi's HVB.  The Energi has to struggle four times harder to provide the same power as the LEAF.  For example, if you drive in EV mode on the Freeway, the Energi HVB will have to struggle much harder than the LEAF to maintain 70 mph.  Thus driving in EV mode on the freeway degrades the Energi's battery significantly more than it does the LEAF's battery driving 70 mph on the freeway.  In the case of the Tesla, driving on the freeway causes a discharge rate of a small fraction of 1 C.  On the Energi, the discharge rate required to maintain that speed is closer to 2.5 C.  Driving the car in EV mode on the freeway causes far more degradation of the HVB in the Energi than the Tesla.  The Tesla battery barely notices the difference in power requirements required to drive 0 mph vs 70 mph.  At such high discharge rates, the Energi battery needs a rest once in a while so that it can keep up with the power demand.  

 

The HVB in the Energi was never meant to be replaced.  It is supposed to last the lifetime of the car.  Replacing the HVB is cost prohibitive.  You would never begin to recover the cost of the replacement in fuel savings.  

Edited June 18, 2016 at 02:46 PM by larryh

[larryh]

This web site contains information on the actual degradation of the batteries of cars placed in service in a courier delivery service for legal documents in Phoenix, AZ: https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-powertrain-architecture. For the most part, the cars were charged once in the evening after deliveries were completed.  During the day, they ran in EV mode until the battery was depleted and then for the remainder of their trips they ran in hybrid mode.  This represents a difficult scenario for batteries, i.e. very warm temperatures and full cycling of the batteries.  However, the batteries did spend much of the day at low SOC which helps reduce degradation.  It would have been worse if they charged twice a day.  The cars don't have many EV miles on them.  If they charged them more to get more EV miles, degradation would have been worse.   When it is hot, you are much better off running in hybrid mode vs EV mode to reduce battery degradation. 

 

They had four 2013 Fusion Energi's that were each driven approximately 100,000 miles in 1.5 years.  The battery degradation was about 8%.

 

They also had four 2013 Volts that were each driven approximately 125,000 miles in 3 years.  The battery degradation was about 9%.

Edited June 20, 2016 at 09:05 AM by larryh

[larryh]

That web site also tested four Nissan LEAFs under about the worst scenario possible.  The actual degradation that one will experience is highly dependent on your location, commutes, and charging practices.

 

They drove the cars 50,000 miles over the course of about 1.5 years. 

 

1.  The location was Phoenix, AZ.  In the summer, the average temperature of the HVB was 110 F.   Battery temperatures got up to 130 F on occasion.  The battery in my car is very rarely over 110 F in MInnesota. 

2.  They fully charged and almost fully discharged the battery twice daily for the morning and evening commutes.  The greater the depth of charge, the faster the battery will degrade with each cycle.  Ideally, one would charge the battery to approximately 80% SOC and discharge it to about 30% SOC to reduce degradation.

3.  They plugged the charger in immediately after they arrived at their destinations.  They should let the battery cool down first.  Also, they should delay charging to the last possible moment before departing for their trips.  If they plug in immediately, the battery will be at a high SOC for much of day which results in faster degradation.

4.  For two of the cars, they used DC Fast Charging (approximately 2C rate).   If you charge the battery faster than approximately 0.8 C, you will experience greater battery degradation.

 

For the two cars that were charged with a Level 2 Charger, the degradation was 75% over 1.5 years.  For the two cars using DC Fast Charging, the degradation was 73%.  When you get to that level of degradation, power output (acceleration performance) will be severely impacted when the SOC falls below about 30%.  

Edited June 20, 2016 at 01:01 AM by larryh