Powertrain fault - remote starting

[openair]

Last spring I experienced three powertrain faults (orange wrench) after using the remote start at 1 Celsius with a fine dusty of snow on the vehicle. The vehicle would drive fine and the orange wrench would disappears after been driven a short distance (2km) and allowed to sit for a short time.

 

One dealership said there was an error generated but it was "undefined" so they didn't know what it meant so "it was not a concern at this point."

 

The powertrain fault occurred again today while using the remote start at 2 Celsius with a bit of partially frozen rain on the vehicle.

 

The dealership also said that their path to a solution to this would be to wait for the vehicle to generate additional powertrain fault codes that would point to the cause.

 

The description of the orange wrench in the manual is pretty simple. Basically "powertrain fault. Take the vehicle to a dealership." This means that this is a warranty breach concern. If I don't take the vehicle in each and every time I use the remote start between 1 and 2C, so they can identify if and when a new fault code appears, and some actual damage to the vehicle were to occur, ford could potentially void the warranty.

 

About a month ago I contacted CAMVAP about seeking arbitration about this and other unsolved issues. They suggested I wait for the powertrain fault to occur again and give another dealership another chance to fix this before opening a case with them.

(CAMVAP: Canadian Motor Vehicle Arbitration Power. Canadians version of lemon laws.)

Edited October 17, 2015 at 06:00 AM by openair

[openair]

This morning the powertrain fault was gone. Same temp, 1 to 2c. Less precipitation on the vehicle.

 

Twice remote started without the powertrain fault. Then turned on climate while the vehicle was already running and the powertrain fault appeared again.

 

None of the four dealerships I called today can look at the vehicle today while the temp remains in this range. Next week will be too late as temps will climb back up.

 

Also ev now and ev later are locked out.

 

Temp climbed to 4c. Powertrain fault gone again. Ev now and ev later back.

Edited October 17, 2015 at 03:10 PM by openair

[larryh]

When the car detects a powertrain fault, it should record the DTC which can be retrieved using an OBD scanner or via ET mode.  If the fault is no longer detected after three restarts, the light will then go off. 

Edited October 17, 2015 at 05:06 PM by larryh

[openair]

Yep. I found the error code in ET mode last spring. I could not find a definition for in anywhere. The dealership can not find a definition.

 

Are you suggesting that because the error eventually disappears I should ignore it?

[larryh]

The dealer should be able to determine what the error code means.  Ford engineers created the error codes, so they should know what they mean.  The dealer should simply be able to ask Ford to determine the meaning.  If Ford does not know what they mean, then Ford needs better engineers that actually talk to each other.  What was the DTC?

 

The error is apparently intermittent.  Without knowing more about it, one cannot determine how serious it is.  But one would not expect an intermittent error to appear multiple times in a month or two. 

Edited October 17, 2015 at 06:44 PM by larryh

[openair]

They got no help identifying this code from the hotline. I have also read at least one other case of ford being unable to identify an error code on these forums. Seems I was mistaken. There is no DTC listed in ET mode.

 

It's not so much intermittent as it is weather dependant. I had the orange wrench appear three times within a month last spring. Each time after using the remote start at 1 Celsius with a light dusting of snow on the vehicle. It disappeared after one or two restarts and likely disappeared due to the vehicle warming up and melting some of the snow.

 

Yesterday the orange wrench appeared at 2C with some freezing rain. It was gone on the next start up the next morning (today).

 

Today it did not appear using the remote start at 1 or 2c with no precipitation on the vehicle. It did appear after the climate controls were turned on to auto after it began snowing some more and ev now and ev later became browned out. It disappeared again on the next start up and has not appeared again as it is now 8c with no precipitation. Twice within 24 hours.

 

It has only ever appeared inside this 1 to 2 Celsius window. It does not appear at -5C with half a foot of snow on the vehicle.

 

It would be reproducible with a hose and a drive in freezer or if the xmen will lend me Storm for a day. No dealership will provide these or make the effort to look at the vehicle during these weather conditions. Forecast is looking like a month before the next few days of O+/-2C.

 

Edit: 10:20pm. Started light flurries around 930. 1 Celsius again. Light dusting of wet snow and freezing rain on the vehicle. Orange wrench againafter a remote start. Third orange wrench appearance and disappearance in 24 hours. Ev later and ev now again blocked out.

 

Powered cycled into ET mode. Still no DTC. Ev now and ev later still blocked out. Power cycled again. Orange wrench remains. Ev later and ev now available again. Drove ~3km. Power cycled again. Orange wrench gone. Total time from appearance to disappearing, 20 minutes.

Edited October 18, 2015 at 02:42 AM by openair

[openair]

8:20am the next morning. It is again 1C. It is snowing more heavily than yesterday and it is actual snow that remains snow instead of melting.

 

There is now about 1Cm of solid snow covering the hood. Yesterday it was much wetter snow but less of it. It is not melting as quickly today.

 

This 1Cm of snow is now too much snow for the powertrain fault to occur and the vehicle remote starts without the orange wrench appearing.

 

The key difference here is that much more of the snow remains snow and doesn't melt. Therefore there is less water running under the hood and into the engine compartment. The hood itself is also likely under 0C, as the snow remains instead of melting, instead of hovering right above freezing.

 

If I can get access to a hose from the girl friends landlord I will brush off all the snow and spray the vehicle lightly with the hose in an effort to confirm this.

 

Edit: brushed off the snow and drove 3.7km. No powertrain fault. No issues switching between Ev now and ev later at the same 1C as yesterday or an even colder 0C.

 

The vehicle will be allowed to cool for an hour or two and then remoted started when the continued flurries we are getting will have reached a point where the powertrain fault will likely occur again.

Edited October 18, 2015 at 01:09 PM by openair

[murphy]

Do you have a block heater?  There is a known problem of block heater use causing an error to happen.

[openair]

It warmed up to 3C faster than I expected and is now 5C. Was not able to get the powertrain fault to occur again. Maybe later tonight.

 

I do have a block heater but it has not been used since last spring and was not used the days this did occur last spring. Does this issue with the block heater occur even when it's not being used? Have a link? Strange the dealer or ford regional manager never considered this last spring if it's a known issue that a block heater can cause powertrain faults.

[murphy]

Read this post in the FFH forum.

 

http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/8074-tsb-14-0020-dtc-p1a18-p1a19-p0aee-p0bcd-when-using-engine-block-heater/page-2?do=findComment&comment=87156

[openair]

Thanks. Sounds like a solid candidate expect for two factors. Most report this occurring after having used the block heater recently and all the DTC listed there have definitions. I'll call the dealership Monday to suggest this and see if they can tell me if the code I am getting is one of these or not.

 

And the fact that the TSB only lists 2013s means the dealership never even considered it and may reject considering it when I bring it up. As they have previously for other issues even when the symptoms are similar.

 

I've never seen my orange wrench in conjunction with block heater use. Only remote start or auto climate use. I might test the block heater when I'm back home Monday but the forecast is calling for a low of 9C most of next week so it would likely be fruitless anyway.

 

Edit: was unable to reproduce it by pouring a bottle of water on the hood. The water was at ambient. Next time I'll try partial frozen water. Seems to be a temp deferential problem.

 

Edit 2: my dad's old odb2 didn't show any dtc either. Anyone know if (accidentally) pushing erase on this may have erased the proprietary codes it couldn't see?

Edited October 19, 2015 at 03:48 AM by openair

[openair]

The dealership says the fault codes are: p01eb:96, u0100. Neither of these are listed in the TSB Murphy linked to. Well P01eb is but not p01eb:96. Anyone know if the :96 means it's an entirely different code or what?

 

If the :96 is just extra information, both of these codes are defined.

 

ENGINE COOLANT HEATER "A" CONTROL CIRCUIT PERFORMANCE.

 

LOST COMMUNICATION WITH ECM / PCM "A"

 

I wonder if these are the codes that the orange wrench gave or if the dealership is confused and giving me the codes the service engine light gave. Which was fixed by replacing the ecm.

 

My dad's old odb2 didn't show any dtc either. Anyone know if (accidentally) pushing erase on this may have erased the proprietary codes it couldn't see?

 

The dealership says these are the correct codes. There was also P04EF. Which appears to be a vacuum voltage code.

 

The dealership says the had reprogrammed the PCM previously following that or a similar Tsb. The dealership is questioning whether the orange wrench and service engine light are actually different. Or if they're the same problem and does not remember dismissing the orange wrench as "not a concern at this point." They think they did the PCM reprogrammed in response to both the powertrain fault and service engine light. I'll have to go over what little paper work they had given me in the past again to try to figure this out.

Edited October 19, 2015 at 06:43 PM by openair

[Hybridbear]

The dealership says the fault codes are: p01eb:96, u0100. Neither of these are listed in the TSB Murphy linked to. Well P01eb is but not p01eb:96. Anyone know if the :96 means it's an entirely different code or what?

 

If the :96 is just extra information, both of these codes are defined.

 

ENGINE COOLANT HEATER "A" CONTROL CIRCUIT PERFORMANCE.

 

LOST COMMUNICATION WITH ECM / PCM "A"

 

I wonder if these are the codes that the orange wrench gave or if the dealership is confused and giving me the codes the service engine light gave. Which was fixed by replacing the ecm.

 

My dad's old odb2 didn't show any dtc either. Anyone know if (accidentally) pushing erase on this may have erased the proprietary codes it couldn't see?

 

The dealership says these are the correct codes. There was also P04EF. Which appears to be a vacuum voltage code.

What OBDII reader are you using? What program are you using to read codes? FORScan works best because it can read all the proprietary Ford codes. If you post what is shown then we can look them up in the workshop manual or via OASIS.

[openair]

It's an old stand alone plug in reader. Can't install forscan. It shows no codes to post.

 

Is there one you recommend?

Edited October 20, 2015 at 04:16 PM by openair

[Hybridbear]

It's an old stand alone plug in reader. Can't install forscan. It shows no codes to post.

 

Is there one you recommend?

OBDLink MX works great for me! The LX is also an option, but it can't read modules on the MSCAN IIRC. Right now it's expensive on Amazon at $99.95. I paid $84.95 on Amazon for mine about a year and a half ago.

[openair]

What makes these worth 5 times the price of a elm327?

Edited October 20, 2015 at 06:39 PM by openair

[Hybridbear]

What makes these worth 5 times the price of a elm327?

I had a cheap one ($20) before & it caused the car to record fault codes & would periodically cause the entire dash to reboot. Communication is also faster with the name brand one. Which one do you have or are you considering that costs about $20?

Edited October 20, 2015 at 07:53 PM by Hybridbear

[openair]

There's a bunch of them on amazon.ca but you get what you pay for and I don't want to give ford a new scapegoat by buying one that may cause the issues you describe.

[Hybridbear]

I don't want to give ford a new scapegoat by buying one that may cause the issues you describe.

No matter which one you buy, I'd suggest hiding it before arriving at the dealer. Ford instructs the dealers to check for these devices since they can cause DTCs. The dealers aren't supposed to repair issues caused by these devices.

[openair]

That's awesome.  So no matter what I just gave them a new scapegoat to not fix my powertrain fault and some ammo they can use against me if this actually goes to arbitration for $150 out of my pocket.  Awesome.  (Edit: for what it's worth I cancelled the order)

 

That and I can't find the paper work from the dealership regarding the powertrain and service engine lights, the dealer is back pedaling and denying what they told me the first time and adding more details and I'm back to less than square one.

Edited October 20, 2015 at 11:18 PM by openair

[larryh]

The DTCs caused by the engine block heater were a result of a programming error.  When they programmed the modules, they forgot to take into account that the engine block heater warms up the engine outside the normal temperature tolerances used to detect fault conditions.  There was 30 C degree threshold difference allowed between the engine coolant temperature and the motor/generator inverter coolant temperature.  If the engine coolant temperature was more than 30 C degrees warmer than the inverter coolant temperature the MIL would illuminate provided the car had been off for at least x hours.  The idea was, that If the car is not running, then everything should cool down to approximately the same temperature.  If that doesn't happen, then something is wrong (probably a sensor is malfunctioning).  That is going to happen frequently with the EBH.  Perhaps something similar happens with the car is remote started. 

[openair]

That seems very likely Larry.  I suggested a few posts ago it was temp differential related since it only occurs when partially frozen precipitation brings cooler than ground ambient temps with it and only near 0C.  The freezing point of water.

 

One other thought I had is that is it a F vs C issue.  Possibly somewhere in programming 0C is being treated as 0F explaining why I occasionally also experience ev now and ev later being locked out at the same time as the orange as this does occur near 0F for more than just myself.

Edited October 20, 2015 at 11:23 PM by openair

[Hybridbear]

That's awesome.  So no matter what I just gave them a new scapegoat to not fix my powertrain fault and some ammo they can use against me if this actually goes to arbitration for $150 out of my pocket.  Awesome.  (Edit: for what it's worth I cancelled the order)

 

That and I can't find the paper work from the dealership regarding the powertrain and service engine lights, the dealer is back pedaling and denying what they told me the first time and adding more details and I'm back to less than square one.

The OBDLink brand scanners should not cause any fault codes to be registered. Only the cheap scanners do that. At least, we have had no issues since switching from a no-name scanner to the OBDLink MX.

Edited October 21, 2015 at 02:01 PM by Hybridbear

[openair]

Are the fault codes unique to these odb related issues or are they the same fault codes the vehicle might give for a valid reason? If the latter, I don't want to give them anymore scapegoats.

[openair]

Again. Orange wrench. Powertrain fault. Again ev later and ev now were locked out with white x's. After one power cycle they became unlocked and behaved as normal indicated it is not solely a temp reason ev later and ev now become locked out in conjunction with the orange wrench up. 5 or 6 power cycles over ten minutes and the orange wrench remains. The vehicle was not driven this time though. Pics show the tiny amount of wet snow (less of and more wet than last pics) that triggers these powertrain faults.

 

Edit:  2 hours later starting the vehicle without remote starting, the orange wrench is gone.  (With vehicle parked, it did pop up the enable ice for performance and the climate kw usage screen while the climate controls were off but did not actually run the ice when I pushed ok.  Few seconds after pushing ok, it popped up again, and again pushing ok did not actually run the ice.)

 

Couple minutes after starting it without the remote start and without the orange wrench, I remote started it for 30 seconds, then started the vehicle.  No orange wrench.  I then remote started for about 3 minutes and then started the vehicle.  Orange wrench reappeared with ev now and ev later locked out again.  This time one power cycle and both the orange wrench and ev later locked out were gone. 

 

It snowed a little more, then quit.  The wet snow is continuing to melt, with slightly less snow on the vehicle than the first occurrence of the orange wrench today (~2 hours ago).  It has been between 1 and 2C during all these events today.

Edited November 14, 2015 at 07:42 AM by openair