Ford's lack of support for EVs

[flyingcheesehead]

This mini-rant started as part of another thread, but it's somewhat OT there and an important conversation, so I'm starting a new thread.

 

It's a great ride.  Better than advertised fuel economy.  Just wish someone would fix these convenience features or at least knew how certain things were supposed to work. 

 

Sadly, though the Energi is what brought me to Ford, and it impressed me enough that I bought another Ford shortly thereafter, I doubt I'll be buying any more Fords in the future. 

 

While the engineering of the Fusion Energi is amazing, the marketing sucks, and the fact that they're removing, rather than adding, features really bothers me and indicates that they are not putting the resources they should be into their electric cars. As a Leaf-driving friend of mine says, "Ford wins the award for having nationally available compliance cars."

 

The engineering got me excited at first. What a great car! A few months after leasing the Energi, I leased an Edge too, figuring that when the lease runs out on the Energi that maybe there will be a Fusion Electric with 200-mile-plus range and maybe an Edge Energi, Escape Energi, or Explorer Energi.

 

Now, I see that Ford is pretty much neglecting their electric car lineup. I've never seen a single Energi ad, I've never seen another Fusion Energi "in the wild" nor at a dealer, the dealer employees don't know how to sell them, and by far the worst part is that there are features being removed from them every year!

 

While the Energi has turned me on to Ford's great engineering and to electric driving in general, it has now turned me off to the company. I'd love to drive a Ford if they'd ADD features and get me excited about what they might have coming down the pipe, but it seems that the pipe is a drain pipe. :(

 

So, I think I'll be getting on the list for a Tesla Model 3 as soon as possible (current word is March). I don't think there will be a Fusion Electric in the next 10 years, and Ford isn't showing any signs of "getting it" when it comes to car tech. (Software Upgrades, people. Not downgrades. And you need better UI design.) Unfortunately, I don't think they're going to apply any of their work to the SUV/CUV line any time soon either... So, rather than that Edge Energi I was lusting for a few months ago, I'm probably going to get a used Volvo XC90 T8 PHEV to replace the Edge when the time comes, as I don't think Ford is going to have anything available.

Ford: You have the opportunity to be a leader here. Are you going to take it?

 

 

[stevedebi]

 

...

So, I think I'll be getting on the list for a Tesla Model 3 as soon as possible (current word is March). I don't think there will be a Fusion Electric in the next 10 years, and Ford isn't showing any signs of "getting it" when it comes to car tech. (Software Upgrades, people. Not downgrades. And you need better UI design.) Unfortunately, I don't think they're going to apply any of their work to the SUV/CUV line any time soon either... So, rather than that Edge Energi I was lusting for a few months ago, I'm probably going to get a used Volvo XC90 T8 PHEV to replace the Edge when the time comes, as I don't think Ford is going to have anything available.

 

Ford: You have the opportunity to be a leader here. Are you going to take it?

 

 

I just checked out this car: The article I read claims 100 MPG, but that can't be right, it must include using the battery, which isn't possible in highway mode with a 9KWH battery. I would expect similar MPG to the normal model with the same engine, about 29 MPG on full highway mode. The City MPGe is 59, far lower than the FFE.Larger car, of course.

 

17 miles of EV driving.

 

Edit: Pricing,

 

For the T8 Drive-E Twin Engine, arriving later this year, pricing will be $68,100 for Momentum trim, $70,000 in R-Design trim, and $71,600 in Inscription trim. A $995 destination charge is additional on all models.

 

But then, it is a Volvo, and a different class of vehicle than the FFE!

 

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/20150517-xc90.html

Edited September 25, 2015 at 10:52 PM by stevedebi

[Hybridbear]

I agree. There's a long thread on the Focus Electric Forum about this, titled "I think Ford has given up on us...". I really like our Focus Electric & Fusion Energi. I am constantly impressed with Ford's well-done engineering. But I am turned off by the fact that Ford has done nothing to improve the Focus Electric. Our Focus Electric lease is up next summer & we will not be getting another Ford. I really like the Focus Electric & I wish it was being improved by Ford. The main improvements over the FFE that we want in our next BEV are: more passenger space & cargo space, DCQC port, slightly more range, in that order of priority. While in the Bay Area this week for work I've been able to drive a Kia Soul EV & a Mercedes B Class Electric Drive. These are the only BEVs that meet those criteria (minus DCQC on the Merc). The Kia Soul EV seems like it would be a nice fit, but there are some issues with it too. The other option that I've started considering is selling the Energi when the Focus goes back & buying a used Model S. Based on Tesla's Supercharging map, the Model S would work as our only car for road trips by late 2016. We'll see what happens...

[Blastphemy]

I just checked out this car: The article I read claims 100 MPG, but that can't be right, it must include using the battery, which isn't possible in highway mode with a 9KWH battery.

 

With normal driving, I average about 250 mpg (so I fill the gas tank once every 2-3 months), but that's because my commute is 36 miles round trip, and I can charge at work.

 

When in Hybrid mode (once most of the battery is discharged), I get about 35-45 mpg.

 

I get about 18 miles per charge (which includes the highway). But I've gotten as much as 25 miles to a charge when driving on mostly flat roads at a consistent 40 mph.

[Fat Fusion]

I was just wondering yesterday what Ford had in store for us going forward.  I haven't heard of anything other than what's currently for sale.  Is there anything in the pipeline?

[rjent]

Well, first of all I will stay loyal to American made.  Flame away if you want about foreign being made here blah blah, but that is what I have always done and what I will do.  My last foreign car was a VW diesel rabbit in '79.  Secondly, Ford has a bottom line that it needs to fulfill.  Electric cars are NOT what the country is buying.  I think the Electric and PHEV idea will catch on and quickly now that it has some momentum, but this is still a highly competitive industry and profit is the bottom line.

 

I am amazed at what some of you guys are saying.  Think about where the EV market was 10 years ago, even 5 years ago, and Ford isn't doing anything? Give me a break.  I am extremely happy with both of the EV cars I have bought from Ford, I think they are working on major developments that we will see in a few years, but with only 3 percent of the market share, hybrid/PHEV cars, just don't justify major investment for development.

 

Yes, it angers me that they are removing features from our cars, but it really isn't the manufactures fault when so many people (who aren't driving the cars like they should) complain about the displays not showing the numbers that were promised.  I owned my own businesses for 40 years, you get tired of the customer din after a while, and in Ford's case, the legal ramifications are real.

 

I for one, am more than pleased with what Ford is doing and I will continue to stand behind them.

 

JMHO 

[openair]

To be fair... The issue from the thread the quote in the op is from is not an ev specific issue. Some of the behaviour is apparently common with all 2013 and 2014 ford intelligent access antennas. My text messaging issue is also not ev related. Being reproducible in a 2013 straight gas fusion.

 

Things like dealers not having, or even requiring, like models to decide how things are supposed to work, no ev certified dealers here in southern Ontario living up to the requirements set for this class of dealership, not being able to identify the special service or parts requirements and ford giving conflicting messages about whether certain behaviour is intended or something a dealership should look at all push me to agree with the spirit of the op though.

 

One dealership here even tells me on the phone they're no longer hybrid electric certified. Yet are still listed as such 4 months later.

Edited September 27, 2015 at 03:32 AM by openair

[stevedebi]

With normal driving, I average about 250 mpg (so I fill the gas tank once every 2-3 months), but that's because my commute is 36 miles round trip, and I can charge at work.

 

When in Hybrid mode (once most of the battery is discharged), I get about 35-45 mpg.

 

I get about 18 miles per charge (which includes the highway). But I've gotten as much as 25 miles to a charge when driving on mostly flat roads at a consistent 40 mph.

That highway sounds about right for the FFE. On the Volvo I would expect no more than 30. From what I can tell, it would be considerably heavier than the Ford, and weight costs MPG.

 

I like the way they added the electric motors, with the battery not intruding into the passenger or cargo areas.

[flyingcheesehead]

I just checked out this car: The article I read claims 100 MPG, but that can't be right, it must include using the battery, which isn't possible in highway mode with a 9KWH battery. I would expect similar MPG to the normal model with the same engine, about 29 MPG on full highway mode. The City MPGe is 59, far lower than the FFE.Larger car, of course.

 

17 miles of EV driving.

 

Edit: Pricing,

 

For the T8 Drive-E Twin Engine, arriving later this year, pricing will be $68,100 for Momentum trim, $70,000 in R-Design trim, and $71,600 in Inscription trim. A $995 destination charge is additional on all models.

 

But then, it is a Volvo, and a different class of vehicle than the FFE!

 

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/20150517-xc90.html

 

Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to hope that they come out quickly and depreciate like a Leaf to be able to find an affordable one in time to replace the Edge! But, I like the idea of having a relatively very small engine for such a large vehicle, and using turbo and supercharging to get good performance. On the EV side, the dual-motor AWD system is nice. Even 17 miles should get my wife to work and back most of the time. I also really like that they were able to not use up any interior/storage space at all to get the battery in. It seems like a really well-designed vehicle so far. I'll have to take a test drive if one shows up locally.

 

I would happily go with a Model X but that'd be even more expensive! :o

 

We'll have to see what's out for PHEV crossovers in January 2018 when the Edge lease is up. I'd love to go with a Ford, but I don't think there's any hope that there'll be an Energi version of the Explorer/Edge/Escape by then. :(

[flyingcheesehead]

Well, first of all I will stay loyal to American made.  Flame away if you want about foreign being made here blah blah, but that is what I have always done and what I will do.  My last foreign car was a VW diesel rabbit in '79.  Secondly, Ford has a bottom line that it needs to fulfill.  Electric cars are NOT what the country is buying.  I think the Electric and PHEV idea will catch on and quickly now that it has some momentum, but this is still a highly competitive industry and profit is the bottom line.

 

I am amazed at what some of you guys are saying.  Think about where the EV market was 10 years ago, even 5 years ago, and Ford isn't doing anything? Give me a break.  I am extremely happy with both of the EV cars I have bought from Ford, I think they are working on major developments that we will see in a few years, but with only 3 percent of the market share, hybrid/PHEV cars, just don't justify major investment for development.

 

Yes, it angers me that they are removing features from our cars, but it really isn't the manufactures fault when so many people (who aren't driving the cars like they should) complain about the displays not showing the numbers that were promised.  I owned my own businesses for 40 years, you get tired of the customer din after a while, and in Ford's case, the legal ramifications are real.

 

Ah, the old "American Made" thing. I used to actually have people give me crap when I drove a Honda. My reply? "Which is more American Made, your Ford that was built in Mexico, or my Honda that was built in Marysville, OH?" We live in a global market, and I doubt that there are any cars left that are both designed by an American company and 100% made in the USA. In fact, the most likely car to fit that would be Tesla!

 

Yes, the EV market is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was 10, or even 5 years ago. However, we've seen what Ford is capable of in the BEV and PHEV markets. Yes, that's currently a small market, but IMO the Tesla Model III is going to blow it wide open and I'd hate to see Ford lose their edge. I also see what GM is doing with their electric vehicle line-up and it looks like Ford is going to sit back and let GM take the lead in the EV market. I haven't ever owned a GM vehicle, but I've looked at them very hard several times - In fact, I was originally going to buy a Terrain instead of the Edge - And I've felt let down every time. They just don't do the quality of engineering Ford is capable of, IMO. But when I'm looking for my next cars, I'm afraid that Ford is going to have the same old thing and the others will have passed them.

 

If you look at it as "EVs are only 3 percent of the market" right now, you're completely missing the point. EVs are the way of the future, and to develop an early leadership position, Ford needs to accept that EVs will be a break-even department at best right now, and put their money into being in the right position at the right time when the EV market explodes. If you're playing hockey, you don't skate to where the puck is, you skate to where it's going.

 

As far as the customers - I get it, I really do. However, you can make ALL your customers happy by having the *option* of displaying the numbers that us EV geeks want to see, rather than just removing them entirely. It's a little bit of code, it's not that hard.

[Hybridbear]

As far as the customers - I get it, I really do. However, you can make ALL your customers happy by having the *option* of displaying the numbers that us EV geeks want to see, rather than just removing them entirely. It's a little bit of code, it's not that hard.

I agree! Ford could just program the cars so that the default is that certain information is not displayed, but those who take the time to read the OM & figure out how to turn it on should still be allowed to have it. One example of this is MPGe in the Energi vehicles. Every time our car gets software updated at the dealer the display defaults back to MPG. I then go & change it back to MPGe. No other settings change that I have noticed, but it appears that in every software update Ford changes the display to MPG in the car. Many 2013 Energi owners are worried that at some point MPGe will be deleted as an option, as was done for subsequent model years.

[rjent]

Ah, the old "American Made" thing. I used to actually have people give me crap when I drove a Honda. My reply? "Which is more American Made, your Ford that was built in Mexico, or my Honda that was built in Marysville, OH?" We live in a global market, and I doubt that there are any cars left that are both designed by an American company and 100% made in the USA. In fact, the most likely car to fit that would be Tesla!

 

Yes, the EV market is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was 10, or even 5 years ago. However, we've seen what Ford is capable of in the BEV and PHEV markets. Yes, that's currently a small market, but IMO the Tesla Model III is going to blow it wide open and I'd hate to see Ford lose their edge. I also see what GM is doing with their electric vehicle line-up and it looks like Ford is going to sit back and let GM take the lead in the EV market. I haven't ever owned a GM vehicle, but I've looked at them very hard several times - In fact, I was originally going to buy a Terrain instead of the Edge - And I've felt let down every time. They just don't do the quality of engineering Ford is capable of, IMO. But when I'm looking for my next cars, I'm afraid that Ford is going to have the same old thing and the others will have passed them.

 

If you look at it as "EVs are only 3 percent of the market" right now, you're completely missing the point. EVs are the way of the future, and to develop an early leadership position, Ford needs to accept that EVs will be a break-even department at best right now, and put their money into being in the right position at the right time when the EV market explodes. If you're playing hockey, you don't skate to where the puck is, you skate to where it's going.

 

As far as the customers - I get it, I really do. However, you can make ALL your customers happy by having the *option* of displaying the numbers that us EV geeks want to see, rather than just removing them entirely. It's a little bit of code, it's not that hard.

 

OK, no point in "arguing"  LOL  I don't agree, but that is fine.  It is what makes this country great .....  :2thumbs:

[stevedebi]

Ah, the old "American Made" thing. I used to actually have people give me crap when I drove a Honda. My reply? "Which is more American Made, your Ford that was built in Mexico, or my Honda that was built in Marysville, OH?" We live in a global market, and I doubt that there are any cars left that are both designed by an American company and 100% made in the USA. In fact, the most likely car to fit that would be Tesla!

 

Yes, the EV market is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was 10, or even 5 years ago. However, we've seen what Ford is capable of in the BEV and PHEV markets. Yes, that's currently a small market, but IMO the Tesla Model III is going to blow it wide open and I'd hate to see Ford lose their edge. I also see what GM is doing with their electric vehicle line-up and it looks like Ford is going to sit back and let GM take the lead in the EV market. I haven't ever owned a GM vehicle, but I've looked at them very hard several times - In fact, I was originally going to buy a Terrain instead of the Edge - And I've felt let down every time. They just don't do the quality of engineering Ford is capable of, IMO. But when I'm looking for my next cars, I'm afraid that Ford is going to have the same old thing and the others will have passed them.

 

If you look at it as "EVs are only 3 percent of the market" right now, you're completely missing the point. EVs are the way of the future, and to develop an early leadership position, Ford needs to accept that EVs will be a break-even department at best right now, and put their money into being in the right position at the right time when the EV market explodes. If you're playing hockey, you don't skate to where the puck is, you skate to where it's going.

 

As far as the customers - I get it, I really do. However, you can make ALL your customers happy by having the *option* of displaying the numbers that us EV geeks want to see, rather than just removing them entirely. It's a little bit of code, it's not that hard.

Well, my C-Max is made in Michigan (for now).

 

However I disagree about EV being the future. Tesla is being kept alive by government incentives. The technology is not yet cheap enough for mass market, and I see it more likely that hydrogen (which does not have the manufacturing pollution behind it that LiIon battery tech entails) is potentially more viable.

[FordService]

I was just wondering yesterday what Ford had in store for us going forward.  I haven't heard of anything other than what's currently for sale.  Is there anything in the pipeline?

 

I recommend keeping an eye on our Ford Media page, Fat Fusion. :)

 

Meagan

[flyingcheesehead]

However I disagree about EV being the future. Tesla is being kept alive by government incentives. The technology is not yet cheap enough for mass market, and I see it more likely that hydrogen (which does not have the manufacturing pollution behind it that LiIon battery tech entails) is potentially more viable.

 

The nice thing with electricity is that there are numerous ways to generate and store it. With the amount of development happening, I doubt we will be using Li-Ion in 10-20 years. Supercapacitors? Some new battery technology? Who knows, but it doesn't matter - An EV can work with any of the above.

 

Likewise, I can charge my car with power from the power company in whatever form, solar panels I put on my house, thousands of hamster wheels, or whatever. The infrastructure and the car can change independently, which is not true of pretty much any other propulsion type.

 

Not to mention, a home hydrogen generator would take up a lot more garage space!

[stevedebi]

...

 

Not to mention, a home hydrogen generator would take up a lot more garage space!

Not to genrate electricity - to replace gasoline as the power for an internal combustion engine, or to power electric motors (which is what the current hydrogen vehicles do). I belive BMW already has a model or two that can run the ICE on hydrogen, but I've not researched it much - too early in the tech to matter at this point.

[flyingcheesehead]

Wow... Let's see if this actually gets any TV play time. Glad to see something happening at least.

 

https://youtu.be/LmwaYYru7Ic

[meyersnole]

Green Car Reports posted an ad from Ford Europe last year...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=64&v=EdklVANhQj8

[Fat Fusion]

Any new rumors out there?  Anything?

[stevedebi]

Any new rumors out there?  Anything?

Rumors? Sure. Nothing confirmed.

 

http://fordauthority.com/2016/03/rumormill-ford-model-e-electric-vehicle-to-enter-production-in-september-2019/

[Fat Fusion]

I'm more than a little surprised there's no response to the Bolt's 200 miles.

[PJFW8]

Ford's Model E is said to arrive in late 2019. In 2013 there was a lot of industry talk of 2018 being a big model year for Ford hybrids, plug-ins and EVs. Now there is not even a hint of modest plug-in improvements in the 2018 model year. One can only conclude that Ford is at least 3 years behind Chevy and Tesla. This is odd because they were far ahead in 2010 when the first Fusion Hybrid came out. Ford's CEO said they could build a Tesla-like vehicle. Clearly there has been a deliberate change in direction and a choice to watch and wait,  As a Ford guy and EV buyer I am very disappointed! This might be the correct choice for Ford profits but a sad choice for me!

[Russael]

i think it's all about the gas prices.  There has been a recorded slump in EV sales because gas is inexpensive right now... and gasoline powered vehicles are generally less expensive than their hybrid counterparts.  Ford has indicated that the sales of their trucks and SUVs have increased substantially (which is also a higher profit margin for them).

 

I'm still geared for EV personally.  I'm very excited/interested to see the new Tesla Model 3.  I praise Chevy for innovating even further with their new Bolt.  My cousin who works for Chevy got an invite to be a tester for the Bolt (but he hasn't been approved yet).  I asked him if I could drive it if and when he gets it and the stipulation is nobody else is allowed to drive it.. but they can ride along.  meh. :)

 

I'd like to get my girlfriend in to an EV (but I need a bigger garage for that).  She loves my Fusion and would like one for herself too.

[PJFW8]

i think it's all about the gas prices.  There has been a recorded slump in EV sales because gas is inexpensive right now... and gasoline powered vehicles are generally less expensive than their hybrid counterparts.  Ford has indicated that the sales of their trucks and SUVs have increased substantially (which is also a higher profit margin for them).

 

I'm still geared for EV personally.  I'm very excited/interested to see the new Tesla Model 3.  I praise Chevy for innovating even further with their new Bolt.  My cousin who works for Chevy got an invite to be a tester for the Bolt (but he hasn't been approved yet).  I asked him if I could drive it if and when he gets it and the stipulation is nobody else is allowed to drive it.. but they can ride along.  meh. :)

 

I'd like to get my girlfriend in to an EV (but I need a bigger garage for that).  She loves my Fusion and would like one for herself too.

I agree 100% My perfect vehicle would be a EV version of the Lincoln MKC or Tesla 3, but I need a rated 300 mile range (to compensate for cold weather reduction). Bolt is close!

[wxdude]

My feeling is that there will be change for the 2018 model year.  Why else would they be switching over and pushing "2017's" so soon?  To me that means they are getting 2017 production done and out of the way to give time to focus on a new 2018 design.