Battery Range at Full Charge

[danville]

Hi, a newbie here.  Traded my 2013 Fusion Hybrid (82,000 miles, average 45.2 life to date) for a new 2015 Fusion Energi Titanium.  After an over night charge on a 120 circuit the gauges indicate a range that varies day-to-day from 26 - 28 miles.  Never greater than 28.  Why would range at maximum charge vary.  Then range drops to 24 miles before I leave the subdivision which is less than 1/2 mile.  No HVAC or heater running and lights not on.  The terrain is flat.  My commute is 18.5 with about 15 of that interstate driving.  I make the commute with anywhere from 5 - 9 miles of EV range remaining.  I use EV now mode start to finish.  I am able to put a full charge on at work so process is repeated on the return trip.  My average highway speed is 65 or less. 

 

Also does charging 120 vs. 240 offer any benefits other than time to full charge.  For example does 240 put a 100% charge on the system while 120 charges to 90% only.

 

Thanks!

[stevedebi]

Hi, a newbie here.  Traded my 2013 Fusion Hybrid (82,000 miles, average 45.2 life to date) for a new 2015 Fusion Energi Titanium.  After an over night charge on a 120 circuit the gauges indicate a range that varies day-to-day from 26 - 28 miles.  Never greater than 28.  Why would range at maximum charge vary.  Then range drops to 24 miles before I leave the subdivision which is less than 1/2 mile.  No HVAC or heater running and lights not on.  The terrain is flat.  My commute is 18.5 with about 15 of that interstate driving.  I make the commute with anywhere from 5 - 9 miles of EV range remaining.  I use EV now mode start to finish.  I am able to put a full charge on at work so process is repeated on the return trip.  My average highway speed is 65 or less. 

 

Also does charging 120 vs. 240 offer any benefits other than time to full charge.  For example does 240 put a 100% charge on the system while 120 charges to 90% only.

 

Thanks!

1. The battery display is an estimated range, and is based on your driving habits and how much energy you have recently used. On my C-Max Energi, when I have been doing my normal EV driving, it reads 31 in the morning, but quickly goes down to 28. The next day after a highyway run, it generally reads 25 at start up. The guage is also impacted by what is drawing energy at the present time, so A/C and (especially) EV heat will really hit the range.

 

2. There is no change to the amount charged with 120v vs 240v - only how long it takes to charge.

[murphy]

240 volt charging is slightly more efficient than 120 volt charging.

[lonzo71]

I would just put it in EV Auto, esp if you like to go faster from a stop or need a little more speed. If you werent able to charge at work, that would be one thing but since you are able to, I would just use auto :) just my 2 cents

[Hybridbear]

I would just put it in EV Auto, esp if you like to go faster from a stop or need a little more speed. If you werent able to charge at work, that would be one thing but since you are able to, I would just use auto :) just my 2 cents

Why? Using Auto would allow the ICE to engage in more situations. I'd stick with EV Now to keep the ICE off under all circumstances.

[murphy]

I have had my car since April 2013 and the only time it has been in Auto is when it switches to Auto at start up and I fail to notice it.  I always run in EV Now unless I am leaving on a trip or trying to use up the 15 month old gasoline in the tank in EV Later mode.  My normal trips do not exceed 11 miles in length so I drive the car in electric only.  That achieves the best possible gas mileage and I pay $0.006 per kWh of electricity because of the 10 kW of PV solar panels on my roof.

[Russael]

I have had my car since April 2013 and the only time it has been in Auto is when it switches to Auto at start up and I fail to notice it.  I always run in EV Now unless I am leaving on a trip or trying to use up the 15 month old gasoline in the tank in EV Later mode.  My normal trips do not exceed 11 miles in length so I drive the car in electric only.  That achieves the best possible gas mileage and I pay $0.006 per kWh of electricity because of the 10 kW of PV solar panels on my roof.

 

I've been curious about something since you let us know that you have a Tesla as well.  Why did you buy a PHEV?  Tesla touts being able to travel from coast to coast on electricity only (and people have done it), so I was wondering as to what made you decide to pick up a Fusion Energi, and then drive that around as if it were a BEV.

[murphy]

I've been curious about something since you let us know that you have a Tesla as well.  Why did you buy a PHEV?  Tesla touts being able to travel from coast to coast on electricity only (and people have done it), so I was wondering as to what made you decide to pick up a Fusion Energi, and then drive that around as if it were a BEV.

I got the Energi in April 2013.  I got the Tesla in September 2014.  The Energi worked fine for electric driving until winter arrived and reduced the 21 mile range to 11 miles.  I looked at the Focus electric but it was missing too many of the features that are in the Energi and no local dealer had one available for me to look at.  I heard about the Tesla in January 2014 and ordered it in May 2014.  The Energi has more creature comfort features than the Tesla.  The big omission for an old guy like me is the grab handles.  Mine also does not have adaptive cruise control (TACC as they call it).  In a continuation of my lifelong battle with Murphy's Law if my Tesla had been built about two weeks later it would have had TACC.

 

I have not taken a long trip in the Energi since I got the Tesla.  I've been to Charlottesville, VA (270 miles) three times in the Tesla.

 

One is transportation and the other is a toy.  I haven't decided yet which is which.

Edited September 26, 2015 at 12:32 PM by murphy

[Russael]

That's cool.

 

So for the Adaptive Cruise, you don't have the sensors on the Tesla, or it has the sensors but not the software?

 

Tesla seems to offer a lot of upgrade options post construction to retrofit your vehicle with a feature you may want.  I don't know how much it'll cost (I know it probably won't be cheap, especially if it needs new hardware), but you may be able to make that option available.

 

A Tesla is my pipe dream car.  If I could afford it, I'd likely finally sell my 16 year old Expedition to pick up a Model X.

[murphy]

That's cool.

 

So for the Adaptive Cruise, you don't have the sensors on the Tesla, or it has the sensors but not the software?

 

Tesla seems to offer a lot of upgrade options post construction to retrofit your vehicle with a feature you may want.  I don't know how much it'll cost (I know it probably won't be cheap, especially if it needs new hardware), but you may be able to make that option available.

 

A Tesla is my pipe dream car.  If I could afford it, I'd likely finally sell my 16 year old Expedition to pick up a Model X.

I'm missing 4 side mounted ultrasonic sensors, the front facing radar, the interval adjusting knob on the speed control stalk (I like the switches on the Energi steering wheel much more), the forward facing camera, and the wiring harness to support the hardware.  Someone estimated it would cost about $20,000 to $30,000 to take the car apart to replace the harnesses, fenders, lower grille, and windshield.  The only way to get the features is to trade up, which I considered, but they dropped the silver color.    I've had black, red, green, and gray cars in the past and I now like silver.

 

My original thought was that the Tesla would only be until Ford stepped up to the plate with a reasonable BEV.  Tesla is open to sharing the supercharger network if the same rules are followed with respect to construction and maintenance of the network.  Sadly there have been no rumors that Ford has yet learned that gasoline powered cars are going to be replaced in the future.  Unfortunately it will take too long for me to see it.

[Russael]

I'm missing 4 side mounted ultrasonic sensors, the front facing radar, the interval adjusting knob on the speed control stalk (I like the switches on the Energi steering wheel much more), the forward facing camera, and the wiring harness to support the hardware.  Someone estimated it would cost about $20,000 to $30,000 to take the car apart to replace the harnesses, fenders, lower grille, and windshield.  The only way to get the features is to trade up, which I considered, but they dropped the silver color.    I've had black, red, green, and gray cars in the past and I now like silver.

 

My original thought was that the Tesla would only be until Ford stepped up to the plate with a reasonable BEV.  Tesla is open to sharing the supercharger network if the same rules are followed with respect to construction and maintenance of the network.  Sadly there have been no rumors that Ford has yet learned that gasoline powered cars are going to be replaced in the future.  Unfortunately it will take too long for me to see it.

 

I'd say it's more Chrysler who hasn't figured that out yet.  After all, they have NO hybrid vehicles.  Yet.  They're rumored to be investigating a Hybrid Minivan.

 

Everybody I know has a silver car.  It's hilarious.  My mother.  Girlfriend.  Cousin.  Next door neighbor.  I am personally a huge fan of black, but I don't like the tuxedo black.  Decided to go with white for my energi (Oxford White) because I think the car looks the best in that color, or technically lack thereof, and I wanted to keep the interior cooler since it reflects more heat than any other color.

 

So yeah, I wouldn't spend 20k to retrofit an older Tesla with one feature either.  You could trade up for almost that amount and get all kinds of new features.

 

At least GM is buying in to the electric vehicle market with their new "Bolt".  I think Mercedes is supposedly developing a BEV to compete with Tesla.  Ever since we had that gross spike in gasoline prices a couple years ago, people have started investigating alternatives, which is awesome.

[JATR4]

I'm missing 4 side mounted ultrasonic sensors, the front facing radar, the interval adjusting knob on the speed control stalk (I like the switches on the Energi steering wheel much more), the forward facing camera, and the wiring harness to support the hardware.  Someone estimated it would cost about $20,000 to $30,000 to take the car apart to replace the harnesses, fenders, lower grille, and windshield.  The only way to get the features is to trade up, which I considered, but they dropped the silver color.    I've had black, red, green, and gray cars in the past and I now like silver.

 

My original thought was that the Tesla would only be until Ford stepped up to the plate with a reasonable BEV.  Tesla is open to sharing the supercharger network if the same rules are followed with respect to construction and maintenance of the network.  Sadly there have been no rumors that Ford has yet learned that gasoline powered cars are going to be replaced in the future.  Unfortunately it will take too long for me to see it.

My buddy, who lives near San Diego, is going to Fremont on Tuesday for the grand unveiling of the new Tesla SUV.  He was up there last month but was not allowed to see the new Vehicle.  He did get a tour of the plant.

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd say it's more Chrysler who hasn't figured that out yet.  After all, they have NO hybrid vehicles.  Yet.  They're rumored to be investigating a Hybrid Minivan.

 

Everybody I know has a silver car.  It's hilarious.  My mother.  Girlfriend.  Cousin.  Next door neighbor.  I am personally a huge fan of black, but I don't like the tuxedo black.  Decided to go with white for my energi (Oxford White) because I think the car looks the best in that color, or technically lack thereof, and I wanted to keep the interior cooler since it reflects more heat than any other color.

 

So yeah, I wouldn't spend 20k to retrofit an older Tesla with one feature either.  You could trade up for almost that amount and get all kinds of new features.

 

At least GM is buying in to the electric vehicle market with their new "Bolt".  I think Mercedes is supposedly developing a BEV to compete with Tesla.  Ever since we had that gross spike in gasoline prices a couple years ago, people have started investigating alternatives, which is awesome.

 

Yes, the entire world has silver cars! My last car was silver. Nearly everyone in my office has a silver car. When I bought my Energi a year ago, silver was the only color I wouldn't consider. I kind of wanted Magnetic, and I think the blue one looks great too, but the only color I could get without waiting a month was Tuxedo Black.

 

Now everyone seems to have a black car!

 

I'm hoping to get my Tesla Model 3 order in fast enough to get one in Signature Red. That color is only available on the first 1000 vehicles shipped of each model. I saw a Signature Red Model S at a Drive Electric Week event, and it was beautiful. Didn't know they were so rare or I'd have taken a picture. But here's a good picture of one:

 

 

I'm glad more manufacturers are buying into EVs, but most of them aren't doing very well at it. Ford got me interested with the Energi, now I like it so much I want to have a fully electric car next time around, but Ford doesn't make one with satisfactory specs. :( Nobody's really doing electric cars completely right except Tesla.

 

Ford makes great cars, but doesn't market them at all.

GM has marketed a lot better, but their cars leave a lot to be desired. (No preconditioning? Really?)

Everyone else seems to have kind of half-assed somewhere in between. Most don't have enough range, many are insanely expensive, most look really funky, most aren't really marketed well, etc...

 

I was hoping that by the time my current leases are up, I'd be able to replace the Energi with a "Fusion Electric" in late 2017 and maybe an "Edge Energi" in early 2018. But, I think it's going to take Tesla selling tons of Model 3's before the other manufacturers really wake up.

[stevedebi]

Yes, the entire world has silver cars! My last car was silver. Nearly everyone in my office has a silver car. When I bought my Energi a year ago, silver was the only color I wouldn't consider. I kind of wanted Magnetic, and I think the blue one looks great too, but the only color I could get without waiting a month was Tuxedo Black.

 

Now everyone seems to have a black car!

 

I'm hoping to get my Tesla Model 3 order in fast enough to get one in Signature Red. That color is only available on the first 1000 vehicles shipped of each model. I saw a Signature Red Model S at a Drive Electric Week event, and it was beautiful. Didn't know they were so rare or I'd have taken a picture. But here's a good picture of one:

 

 

I'm glad more manufacturers are buying into EVs, but most of them aren't doing very well at it. Ford got me interested with the Energi, now I like it so much I want to have a fully electric car next time around, but Ford doesn't make one with satisfactory specs. :( Nobody's really doing electric cars completely right except Tesla.

 

Ford makes great cars, but doesn't market them at all.

GM has marketed a lot better, but their cars leave a lot to be desired. (No preconditioning? Really?)

Everyone else seems to have kind of half-assed somewhere in between. Most don't have enough range, many are insanely expensive, most look really funky, most aren't really marketed well, etc...

 

I was hoping that by the time my current leases are up, I'd be able to replace the Energi with a "Fusion Electric" in late 2017 and maybe an "Edge Energi" in early 2018. But, I think it's going to take Tesla selling tons of Model 3's before the other manufacturers really wake up.

With the hybrid powertrain and battery (or just EV), the Edge would top 4400 lbs. I don't think they will be making a hybrid or an EV out of that one. Possible, but doubtful. Even the FFE is already at 3900 pounds. Adding more batteries gets to be counter productive at some point. Of course, one never knows where the tech will be in a few years time. But 2017 cars are already basically designed.

[flyingcheesehead]

With the hybrid powertrain and battery (or just EV), the Edge would top 4400 lbs. I don't think they will be making a hybrid or an EV out of that one. Possible, but doubtful. Even the FFE is already at 3900 pounds. Adding more batteries gets to be counter productive at some point. Of course, one never knows where the tech will be in a few years time. But 2017 cars are already basically designed.

 

The Tesla Model X is 5,441 pounds - No reason that Ford can't make it into an EV if it's 1,000 pounds lighter.

 

Also, the "Fusion Electric" could be lighter than a Fusion Energi. If we made the battery 10x bigger, it'd be 76 kWh. The 85kWh Tesla battery is 1,450 pounds. If it's 10% less capacity and 10% less weight, it'd be about 10x the current range, which would be respectable and competitive.

 

Now, if we remove the current HVB, the engine, and the transmission, I bet we'd find that it's quite possible that we'd have the room to put a 1300 pound battery in...

[lonzo71]

Why? Using Auto would allow the ICE to engage in more situations. I'd stick with EV Now to keep the ICE off under all circumstances.

Well..based on his number miles of commute and his ability to charge at work. If he needs to use the pedal, he'll use both gas and electric and then it will stay on electric, yes? If he gets 19 miles on a full charge with heat/AC..and his commute is 18...that doesnt leave a whole lot a room, thats why I suggest what I did. Auto, for me, works good for the type of commute

[stevedebi]

The Tesla Model X is 5,441 pounds - No reason that Ford can't make it into an EV if it's 1,000 pounds lighter.

 

Also, the "Fusion Electric" could be lighter than a Fusion Energi. If we made the battery 10x bigger, it'd be 76 kWh. The 85kWh Tesla battery is 1,450 pounds. If it's 10% less capacity and 10% less weight, it'd be about 10x the current range, which would be respectable and competitive.

 

Now, if we remove the current HVB, the engine, and the transmission, I bet we'd find that it's quite possible that we'd have the room to put a 1300 pound battery in...

Yeah, they could make it, if they wanted to charge 75K like Tesla does, and redesign the entire car for electric drive, like Tesla does.

[flyingcheesehead]

Yeah, they could make it, if they wanted to charge 75K like Tesla does, and redesign the entire car for electric drive, like Tesla does.

 

The cost of the battery is a big problem. That's why Tesla is building the Gigafactory. However, even now the price of the batteries is dropping dramatically. I spoke with a Tesla-authorized shop owner who said that the cost of a battery replacement has dropped from $40K to less than 20 in the space of a couple of years... And that's at retail.

 

Again, removing the cost of building the engine, transmission, etc. can go a long way towards paying for extra battery capacity. They also wouldn't have to "redesign the entire car for electric drive" - The Energi isn't completely redesigned from the regular Fusion, only the powertrain. Ford knows what they're doing already, they created the Focus Electric. 

 

I think Ford could create a Fusion Electric with a decent range for a reasonable price. They could sell it, too, if they only tried.

[stevedebi]

The cost of the battery is a big problem. That's why Tesla is building the Gigafactory. However, even now the price of the batteries is dropping dramatically. I spoke with a Tesla-authorized shop owner who said that the cost of a battery replacement has dropped from $40K to less than 20 in the space of a couple of years... And that's at retail.

 

Again, removing the cost of building the engine, transmission, etc. can go a long way towards paying for extra battery capacity. They also wouldn't have to "redesign the entire car for electric drive" - The Energi isn't completely redesigned from the regular Fusion, only the powertrain. Ford knows what they're doing already, they created the Focus Electric. 

 

I think Ford could create a Fusion Electric with a decent range for a reasonable price. They could sell it, too, if they only tried.

To be efficient, the car really needs to be designed from the ground up to be electric, like the Leaf. Adapting existing cars is always going to lead to inefficiencies. I'm not certain that Ford sees the need for it beyond whatever it takes for them to meet the CA / CARB zero emissions vehicle requirements. And the larger the car, the worse it does with being converted to all electric (more weight to haul around).

 

Could they? Sure. Is it likely to be economically viable? Not without big subsidies.

[flyingcheesehead]

To be efficient, the car really needs to be designed from the ground up to be electric, like the Leaf. Adapting existing cars is always going to lead to inefficiencies.

 

How so? Yes, it's probably a better design if it's designed to be electric from the start, but I don't see that there would be a huge difference in "efficiency".

 

Example: Tesla's battery is on the bottom, which gives them some advantages in terms of safety and swappability. But having a battery in the front isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it won't impact efficiency significantly.

[Russael]

I don't think he means how efficient a car drives, but more along the lines of how the space in the vehicle is utilized.

[openair]

How so? Yes, it's probably a better design if it's designed to be electric from the start, but I don't see that there would be a huge difference in "efficiency".

 

Example: Tesla's battery is on the bottom, which gives them some advantages in terms of safety and swappability. But having a battery in the front isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it won't impact efficiency significantly.

There would be different engineering requirements for squeeze the battery into an existing space then to engineer a space around the battery.

 

The battery in a model S is long, wide and thin. Can run a row of heatsinks or active cooling ducts in one or a few straight channels along one or even both sides of the battery.

 

If the battery were squished in the engine space it would have to be more cubed shaped. Maybe layered. The cooling system would have to snake between the layers, with heat generating components on either side of some of the cooling system.

 

This would be less effective use of the space and a less efficient cooling system. A less efficient cooling system means a less efficient drive.

Edited October 8, 2015 at 04:35 PM by openair

[flyingcheesehead]

There would be different engineering requirements for squeeze the battery into an existing space then to engineer a space around the battery.

 

The battery in a model S is long, wide and thin. Can run a row of heatsinks or active cooling ducts in one or a few straight channels along one or even both sides of the battery.

 

If the battery were squished in the engine space it would have to be more cubed shaped. Maybe layered. The cooling system would have to snake between the layers, with heat generating components on either side of some of the cooling system.

 

This would be less effective use of the space and a less efficient cooling system. A less efficient cooling system means a less efficient drive.

 

Right, but as with everything, the question is: Is it a significant difference?

The current battery is not flat, and it's still air-cooled. Liquid cooling would likely allow for a reasonably - sized battery to be put in the engine compartment without an overly complex cooling system. Maybe not perfect, but also not likely to use a ton of extra energy. After all, the Tesla and the Volt, both designed as electric cars, still have liquid-cooled batteries.