Driving the Energi as a hybrid

[troylikesbikes]

So, after becoming engrossed in the thread where voltages were checked during usage, mV here and mV there, and percolating on that information, and then understanding that the HVB is THE battery in the car, and when the car is in hybrid or EVLater mode, the hybrid mode will be operating at that SOC that exists when it does this, be at with the HVB exhausted, or nearly full.

 

Seeing that the HVB appears to be more stressed when operating at a low SOC, it would seem logical that if I had intentions of running the car for 1000 miles in a day, it will certainly be operating as a hybrid, and that the HVB would take better to playing "hybrid" at a 50% SOC rather than a 20% SOC. Reasonable assumption? After all, the car can imitate a hybrid at anywhere from full HVB to empty HVB, but it is using the same battery, just at different SOC. So it would seem reasonable that the best place for the Energi to "play" hybrid would be the place within the SOC range that places the least stress on the HVB.

 

So, if our max range is 20 miles, min range 0 (already operating within a smaller window SOC "allowed" by the car, never fully charging or depleting the battery), what would be the best miles to carry on the meter to place the least stress on the battery? Certainly not 0, or 20, but perhaps 10, near the middle? 5? The goal here being to minimize stress on the HVB, while driving only in hybrid mode on the interstates.

 

This isn't a theoretical, I'll be doing the first official road trip starting tomorrow, 2000 miles one way including the Blue Ridge Parkway end to end (haven't done that in 20 years). This trip, unlike the last test trip, will involve fast interstates, solid 80 mph, big secondaries in Kansas (65 mph), back roads (southern MO and western KY), and then the Parkway from Smokey Mt NP through Skyline drive to Front Royal. Then on to DC, where the car will sit for days, and then mostly interstate back. 4000 miles all in.

[Fat Fusion]

Cool.  Let us know how it goes.

[bdginmo]

I really wish there was an option to charge the HVB via the ICE. I realize you can use the trick where you push the EV button 3x to "reset" the mid point percentage of the hybrid mode to trick the car into charging the HVB, but that takes a lot of effort. I used this method to add 10% to the SoC as a quick experiment to see how it works. By the way, does that trick have any negative consequences? Anyway, having a mode that charges the battery on long trips (like what the OP is talking about) could be useful IMHO.

Edited September 4, 2015 at 01:11 PM by bdginmo

[stevedebi]

I really wish there was an option to charge the HVB via the ICE. I realize you can use the trick where you push the EV button 3x to "reset" the mid point percentage of the hybrid mode to trick the car into charging the HVB, but that takes a lot of effort. I used this method to add 10% to the SoC as a quick experiment to see how it works. By the way, does that trick have any negative consequences? Anyway, having a mode that charges the battery on long trips (like what the OP is talking about) could be useful IMHO.

I think we have gone over this either here or on the C-Max Energi forums. It actually ends up using more gas to recharge the ICE, because the engine has to work harder each time you "capture" energy back into the HVB. I've tried it both ways, and have found that it is best to just let the car do what it does in EV Later. The only exceptions are that I will shift to EV Auto on a big uphill (if the ICE goes above 4K RPM), and "capture" excess energy after a long downhill. Other than that, it is both simpler and better to just stay in EV Later, in my opinion.

[bdginmo]

I think we have gone over this either here or on the C-Max Energi forums. It actually ends up using more gas to recharge the ICE, because the engine has to work harder each time you "capture" energy back into the HVB. I've tried it both ways, and have found that it is best to just let the car do what it does in EV Later. The only exceptions are that I will shift to EV Auto on a big uphill (if the ICE goes above 4K RPM), and "capture" excess energy after a long downhill. Other than that, it is both simpler and better to just stay in EV Later, in my opinion.

 

That totally makes sense. One thing I have noticed so far is that switching to EV Later will still gradually lower the SoC over the course of multiple stops and restarts. I was thinking that having a way to charge from the ICE could help avoid keeping the HVB in a low SoC if you didn't have easy access to an outlet for charging. Of course, it's moot if we really shouldn't be too concerned with having a low SoC to begin with.

[stevedebi]

That totally makes sense. One thing I have noticed so far is that switching to EV Later will still gradually lower the SoC over the course of multiple stops and restarts. I was thinking that having a way to charge from the ICE could help avoid keeping the HVB in a low SoC if you didn't have easy access to an outlet for charging. Of course, it's moot if we really shouldn't be too concerned with having a low SoC to begin with.

Ford engineered the hybrids and Energi vehicles to protect the LiIon battery. They also have no interest in having to replace them before 8 years / 100k or 10 years / 150K (CARB states).

 

The only things I do to protect my battery:

 

- Don't charge when it is hot; I use value charging, not to save money, but to charge after the temperature cools down.

 

- ALWAYS run my A/C when the temperature is above 75 F or so. Ford designed the HVB without active cooling, so it only gets chilled air from the cabin.

[openair]

Ford engineered the hybrids and Energi vehicles to protect the LiIon battery. They also have no interest in having to replace them before 8 years / 100k or 10 years / 150K (CARB states).

They also have no specifics in these warranties as far as performance or capacity. People have fusion or cmax energi batteries that only now charge to a usable capacity of ~4.4 kWh and nothing is done (almost 25% loss of capacity).

 

The warranty has absolutely no bearing when concerns about how to keep the battery healthy and able to maintain a usable state of charge are raised.

Edited September 4, 2015 at 08:43 PM by openair

[stevedebi]

They also have no specifics in these warranties as far as performance or capacity. People have fusion or cmax energi batteries that only now charge to a usable capacity of ~4.4 kWh and nothing is done (almost 25% loss of capacity).

 

The warranty has absolutely no bearing when concerns about how to keep the battery healthy and able to maintain a usable state of charge are raised.

They have to worry about it failing to the point where there is a CARB / EPA warranty claim, that is, a failed battery. I did a search but could not find any criteria about the percentage of battery degredation that would constitute a "failed" system. I think it basically means the battery pack won't work at all. I just checked my owners manual and don't see any percentages there.

 

Not really sure any of this applies to this thread, about hybrid use. An Energi is going to function as a hybrid for a long, long time.

[openair]

Exactly. A failed battery. There is a lot of potential lost capacity that the warranty doesn't apply to. And while an energi will function as a hybrid after it has losts all of its extra HVB capacity over a hybrid, we'd paid a lot of money for that capacity.

 

Many, such as the op, will also operate their energi as a hybrid by choice, after the ev range has been depleted or in ev later, long before the battery has degraded to the point where it may still function as a hybrid for a "long, long time."

 

So the op wants to know which is less stressful on the battery in an effort to minimize this degradation and get the most of why we paid more for these vehicles over a straight hybrid. Running in ev later at a higher soc or a lower soc.

[murphy]

I have not seen anything in the Owner's Manual that recommends that the owner protect their battery.  It has been stated that the battery was designed to last the life of the car. 

 

IF I was the designer the way I would do that is to select a range within the battery for the car to operate.  It would never discharge anywhere near actual zero and would never charge anywhere near actual 100%.  The 0% and 100% presented to the operator would be design selections and that range could be moved within the constraints of the battery, if necessary, by the control software.  The software would protect the battery and the owner, who is unlikely to be an electrical engineer, would drive the car and not worry about battery factors.

 

I choose to believe that they did this and I am an electrical engineer.

 

My car is slightly less than than 2.5 years old and I have not seen any battery changes.  Yesterday I drove 22.5 miles in 89 degree heat with the air conditioning on and set to 72 degrees.  I made one stop during the trip.  The ICE did not run at all.

 

I think it is telling that when I get home with an empty battery and don't plug it in I get a text message telling me to plug the car in so it can charge.  My electric rate is the same 24/7 so I can charge anytime I want to.  When I plug it in it always starts charging immediately.  There is no wait for the battery to cool down.  I know it is charging because the red light on my dedicated kWh meter begins blinking.

 

I do not plan to keep this car for the rest of my life.  My 2010 Fusion hybrid lasted 4 years until something better came along, the Energi.

I hope Ford is paying attention to what Tesla is doing and has their act together.  I have stated before that a Fusion Energi with the Tesla battery and the ICE and eCVT removed would be a great car.  My other car is a Tesla model S.  When I go to my garage I can drive either car.  50% of the time it is the Energi.  The Tesla is a far noisier car than the Energi with its active noise cancellation. 

 

How many of you know that the Energi has an aluminum hood?

 

A very long time ago I worked for Philco-Ford so I am an ex Ford employee.  I left Ford when they shut Philco-Ford down.

[larryh]

I was under the impression that active noise cancellation was for the ICE.   Does active noise cancellation do anything about road noise?  Is the model S a noisier car at all speeds?  Is it noisier because of road noise or motor noise?

[murphy]

I was under the impression that active noise cancellation was for the ICE.   Does active noise cancellation do anything about road noise?  Is the model S a noisier car at all speeds?  Is it noisier because of road noise or motor noise?

ANC kills a lot more than the ICE noise.  I was sitting in my car in the garage with the windows up and I was hearing a soft repetitive tapping noise.  I opened the door and immeditely recognized the noise of a jackhammer.  The noise in the Tesla is road noise.  It's very loud on concrete and much quieter on asphalt.  I have never noticed anything like that in my Energi.  The electric motor is not audible to me.  I imagine if I could still hear high frequency sounds I might be able to hear the inverter.

[larryh]

This is what consumer reports claims.  I don't trust their reviews.  Do you have the larger tires?

 

The Tesla is among the quietest cars we've tested; only the Lexus LS was quieter.  Even at maximum acceleration, powertrain noise is drowned out by light wind noise and just a little road noise.  Summer-only 21-inch performance tires, transmits more tire noise into the cabin. 

[Doug0716]

My experience with the Telsa was mixed. In the drivers seat it seemed pretty quiet, but maybe I was just distracted by the fact that I was driving a damn Tesla... in the back seat though, the road noise was really loud.  That was a stock Tesla vehicle from the manufacturer's "show store" (gotta love how they get around the "You can't sell your car in our state" laws).

The Fusion is pretty quiet, though the ice is rough (nature of the efficient beast) which makes it a bit louder than the ANC can handle, IMHO. I don't hear any high frequency pitches from the inverter, and my hearing is pretty decent.

[murphy]

I have the 19" tires.  There are too many potholes around here to put on the 21" rims and tires that fail at the first pothole.

[Russael]

My experience with the Telsa was mixed. In the drivers seat it seemed pretty quiet, but maybe I was just distracted by the fact that I was driving a damn Tesla... in the back seat though, the road noise was really loud.  That was a stock Tesla vehicle from the manufacturer's "show store" (gotta love how they get around the "You can't sell your car in our state" laws).

 

The Fusion is pretty quiet, though the ice is rough (nature of the efficient beast) which makes it a bit louder than the ANC can handle, IMHO. I don't hear any high frequency pitches from the inverter, and my hearing is pretty decent.

 

At highway speeds, I don't hear the ICE at all.  It comes on and off, and I never hear it one way or the other.  Now, if I'm driving city in hybrid mode, yeah, you can hear the ICE roar a bit upon acceleration, and then quiets down.  I think the Energi, even with the ICE running, is one of the quietest cars I've ever ridden in.

[troylikesbikes]

Day 1

 

Denver->Warrenton MO

 

3 200+ mile tanks, 39,40,37 mpg. All A/C, 75-80 mph, 95F ambient. 

 

Day 2

 

Warrenton -> Chattanooga TN

 

1 400+ mile tank, 43 mpg,  60/40 A/C on/off, some 70 mph interstate, a fair amount of 50-60 secondaries. Gained about 4 miles of EV range dropping down into Chattanooga along I-24. Will run it down tomorrow to much lower SOC, maybe 1-2-3 miles remaining, in preparation for the Chenola Skyway and some big downhills where I expect to be putting a lot back into the HVB. 

 

Expected mileage to be better in the 50-60 range, and it was, the car was pretty solid (according to the mpg meter) in the 47-48 mpg range until I began running those last few hours on I24 to Chattanooga. Then the higher speeds began rolling the mileage back, which isn't unexpected.

[Hybridbear]

So, if our max range is 20 miles, min range 0 (already operating within a smaller window SOC "allowed" by the car, never fully charging or depleting the battery), what would be the best miles to carry on the meter to place the least stress on the battery? Certainly not 0, or 20, but perhaps 10, near the middle? 5? The goal here being to minimize stress on the HVB, while driving only in hybrid mode on the interstates.

One key to minimizing HVB stress is minimizing voltage variation between cells. Higher charge/discharge rates lead to higher voltage variation. Voltage variation also seems to be higher with a full pack, and then stabilizes once the pack is slightly discharged. I have not logged enough data to get a feel for the resting mV cell variation at various SOC levels. I'd think it's best to be between 25 & 75% of the usable SOC.

[troylikesbikes]

One key to minimizing HVB stress is minimizing voltage variation between cells. Higher charge/discharge rates lead to higher voltage variation. Voltage variation also seems to be higher with a full pack, and then stabilizes once the pack is slightly discharged. I have not logged enough data to get a feel for the resting mV cell variation at various SOC levels. I'd think it's best to be between 25 & 75% of the usable SOC.

 

This has been about what I've settled on. I kick into EVLater when I have about 4-5 miles of range remaining, and lately have only been fully charging the car when I know I am about to use it enough to put an appropriate sized dent in it. Don't let 100% charge sit on the batteries any longer than necessary. Has been a pain with the wife, because it means I need a few hours notice that she is going to tai the car any distance to make sure it is "fueled" up for her, but we're working it out.

 

However, something that might not be so great on it then, if the rate of charge is important for battery life, is what I did on the BlueRidge parkway this past weekend. I charged the HVB 3 times in a day by running it downhill in L and using hill descent, and it sure charged pretty quick that way, compared to even a 220V charger. Did it so badly once the car shut down to protect itself I think, turned on the heat, lit up the dashboard, the regen stopped working going down hill, it was quite exciting. Happened after the engine came on first, I assume to attempt to waste electricity. Then things got wonky in the braking, and then the car dashboard wigged out with warnings, turned itself off, said to stop soon. I managed to drift into a parking lot/visitor center, pulled out the owners manual and tried to figure things out, knowing it was probably an emergency protection of the battery in some way, for temp or overcharge. Rebooted the car, it worked fine in EV mode, and I immediately ran it up a hill to get the battery into a more discharged state. 

 

Having tried charging it to max since then though, hoping I didn't hurt it in some way. Managed to EV more than 300 miles on a single tank without recharging via wall socket though, that was an amazing stat at the end of the first day on the Parkway, just the amount of ICE free motoring I was able to do.

[Taz]

Keep in mind in regen mode down hills it can recharge the pack at a very high rate causing heat and extra stress on the cells. I would be careful doing this if you don't want to stress the pack too much.

[Hybridbear]

However, something that might not be so great on it then, if the rate of charge is important for battery life, is what I did on the BlueRidge parkway this past weekend. I charged the HVB 3 times in a day by running it downhill in L and using hill descent, and it sure charged pretty quick that way, compared to even a 220V charger. Did it so badly once the car shut down to protect itself I think, turned on the heat, lit up the dashboard, the regen stopped working going down hill, it was quite exciting. Happened after the engine came on first, I assume to attempt to waste electricity. Then things got wonky in the braking, and then the car dashboard wigged out with warnings, turned itself off, said to stop soon. I managed to drift into a parking lot/visitor center, pulled out the owners manual and tried to figure things out, knowing it was probably an emergency protection of the battery in some way, for temp or overcharge. Rebooted the car, it worked fine in EV mode, and I immediately ran it up a hill to get the battery into a more discharged state. 

That sounds like an HVB issue. Charging on L2 is a rate of 3.3 kW. The max charge rate while driving is 35 kW. You can see the difference. Did you charge from empty to full on the hills? Or just regen a few miles into the HVB.

 

The ICE will come on when descending hills to use engine braking instead of HVB charging to maintain the car's speed. The ICE uses no gas when doing engine braking at high RPMs. It is acting as a large air compressor to absorb the excess energy from descending the hill.

[troylikesbikes]

Keep in mind in regen mode down hills it can recharge the pack at a very high rate causing heat and extra stress on the cells. I would be careful doing this if you don't want to stress the pack too much.

That's what I figured as well. But it isn't often you get to get free recharge of that magnitude, plus I am still in the experimental phase with this car.

[troylikesbikes]

That sounds like an HVB issue. Charging on L2 is a rate of 3.3 kW. The max charge rate while driving is 35 kW. You can see the difference. Did you charge from empty to full on the hills? Or just regen a few miles into the HVB.

 

The ICE will come on when descending hills to use engine braking instead of HVB charging to maintain the car's speed. The ICE uses no gas when doing engine braking at high RPMs. It is acting as a large air compressor to absorb the excess energy from descending the hill.

 

I charged from low to full, didn't start out empty. On the downhill run where the car shut down, I started down the hill with too much charge. Didn't realize I had such a big downhill, filled the HVB early, and then just kept going downhill. I had done this same thing 3 times the day before, and the engine had kicked on to let me know the HVB was full, but soon thereafter I hit the bottom of the hill and began draining the HVB. Didn't think what would happen if I kept going downhill, should have kicked on A/C, stopped using low, used brakes abruptly to minimize regen, but I didn't. My bad. Will know better next time.

 

The engine came on first. I know it runs just as a means to waste excess power, HATED that on the older hybrids I owned. The brakes got wonky second, The car turned itself off, gave me some "Active Power On" error message, red triangle with exclamation point, and the heater turned on. Damndest thing I'd ever seen. Drifted into a parking stall, brakes and steering worked, EV button did nothing, throttle did nothing, system error messages gave me the pull over safely thing. Rebooted car, and everything worked okay. Figured I overheated the HVB or overcharged it. Drained the battery down going up the next hill, and was a wee bit more careful after that trying to charge the battery on long downhill runs.

[stevedebi]

I charged from low to full, didn't start out empty. On the downhill run where the car shut down, I started down the hill with too much charge. Didn't realize I had such a big downhill, filled the HVB early, and then just kept going downhill. I had done this same thing 3 times the day before, and the engine had kicked on to let me know the HVB was full, but soon thereafter I hit the bottom of the hill and began draining the HVB. Didn't think what would happen if I kept going downhill, should have kicked on A/C, stopped using low, used brakes abruptly to minimize regen, but I didn't. My bad. Will know better next time.

 

The engine came on first. I know it runs just as a means to waste excess power, HATED that on the older hybrids I owned. The brakes got wonky second, The car turned itself off, gave me some "Active Power On" error message, red triangle with exclamation point, and the heater turned on. Damndest thing I'd ever seen. Drifted into a parking stall, brakes and steering worked, EV button did nothing, throttle did nothing, system error messages gave me the pull over safely thing. Rebooted car, and everything worked okay. Figured I overheated the HVB or overcharged it. Drained the battery down going up the next hill, and was a wee bit more careful after that trying to charge the battery on long downhill runs.

You should take it to the dealer, so Ford is aware of the issue (even if it turns out something is not wrong with your car). The car should never shut down simply because of downhill; it should be able to handle these events.

[lonzo71]

You should take it to the dealer, so Ford is aware of the issue (even if it turns out something is not wrong with your car). The car should never shut down simply because of downhill; it should be able to handle these events.

I was thinking that the car would have something built into it (software or whatever) because someone could have a full battery at the top of a hill...just didnt make sense that the car would do that...I should be able to have a full battery and put it in L  and even use the brakes without the car shutting down...

Edited September 10, 2015 at 06:19 PM by lonzo71