Fusion Energi has good resale value - Battery EVs not so much

[rsrwc]

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/used-evs-hit-by-plunging-values-could-give-savvy-124255982617.html

[cwstnsko]

To me it looks like there is a least a reasonable correlation between the depreciation amount and the amount of incentives the original owner recieved. 

The real competition for used EVs in the marketplace is heavily incentivized new EVs.  As long as the incentives exist, the depreciation on used EVs will continue to be brutal.

[storksb]

One question I have is whether depreciation is calculated om MSRP or the price actually paid before tax credits are taken into account.

[rsrwc]

I am not sure whether the tax credits are taken into account, I doubt it because they vary by state and they are probably going by the same formula as gasmobiles where there are no tax credits.  

 

Nevertheless, Nissan is offering a $7000 lease buyout to try to keep people from returning their Leafs to the dealer at the end of the lease

 

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/06/10/7000-credit-offered-by-nissan-for-nissan-leaf-lease-buyout/ 

 

so I think Nissan is worried about how rapidly the Leaf resale is dropping.  I am thinking that, because resale value figures into the monthly amount of a 3 year lease, that it will be difficult for Nissan to offer the same attractive monthly lease terms going forward.  It may be that Leafs are like cell phones - the next year model has better battery life so the old ones go down in price really really fast.

 

Also it does seem like the Fusion Energi is in much better shape - I know I have received a letter from my Ford dealer saying that they could make me a very attractive trade in offer on my Fusion Energi Titanium.  So Nissan is paying people to keep their Leafs, and Ford wants Fusion Energis back to resell! Quite a contrast - I think because plug-in hybrids don't live or die only by battery range.

 

Regardless, this is an interesting dynamic of the EV marketplace to watch, especially if like me you are starting to think about getting a used Leaf for your high school kid to drive around town.

 

One question I have is whether depreciation is calculated om MSRP or the price actually paid before tax credits are taken into account.

[Hybridbear]

Also it does seem like the Fusion Energi is in much better shape - I know I have received a letter from my Ford dealer saying that they could make me a very attractive trade in offer on my Fusion Energi Titanium.

I don't know that a mass mailing from the dealer would count as proof that the Energi is holding its value better. My guess is that they sent that letter to everyone who bought a Fusion, regardless of if the Fusion is ICE-only, hybrid or Energi. We recently got a letter from the dealer who does our maintenance work saying that they want to make us a trade in offer on our Focus. There is no reference to the Focus being a Focus Electric in the letter. I'm pretty sure they would not want our Focus Electric. Its resale value is similarly low, like the Leaf. That's why we leased the Focus & bought the Fusion.

[Russael]

My letters have always been specific to Fusion Energi, but I think it's more of a gimmick to get people to trade in a vehicle so they can sell a new one.  I didn't buy a vehicle to trade it in 2 years later.  If I wanted to do that, I would've leased it.

 

My girlfriend got similar letters for her gas powered 2012 Focus, asking her to trade in and trade up.

[jeff_h]

My girlfriend got similar letters for her gas powered 2012 Focus, asking her to trade in and trade up.

 

I normally get a new car every 3-5 years due to driving about 40k per year, so I get these things in the mail for various past models probably about once a month.  I still get the same type letter from the local Toyota dealer (they send me more than the others combined I think) for the Prius that I bought in 2005 and sold in 2009 (not even from that local dealer, I was only there for inspections and one warranty repair but that was enough to get me on the customer list).

 

So maybe I should start tracking these more closely to see which type letters I get more frequently:

 

1 - The "we want your car" letters in the mail from past dealers on cars I no longer own;

 

2 - The "we want you back" letters from Sirius for subscriptions on those same cars that I no longer own.

Edited August 17, 2015 at 02:18 PM by jeff_h

[murphy]

I still get letters from my old Ford dealer stating that they need my 2010 Fusion Hybrid that I bought from them in April 2009 and traded in to my new dealer in April 2013 when I got the Energi.  Now I am getting emails from the new dealer wanting to sell me every product that they have but no recognition that I have an Energi and will never go back to a gas only car.  I am out of the market for cars that have gas engines. 

 

The majority of my Energi driving is electric only and my other car is a BEV.

[Hybridbear]

The majority of my Energi driving is electric only and my other car is a BEV.

What's your other car?

[murphy]

What's your other car?

I thought that someone would have figured that out by now but I guess my hints were too suttle.

This one should make it easy.

The EPA rated range is 265 miles.

[Russael]

I thought that someone would have figured that out by now but I guess my hints were too suttle.

This one should make it easy.

The EPA rated range is 265 miles.

 

I know!  It's a Focus Electric.

 

If you drove a Focus Electric at 25MPH everywhere in temperate climate with no HVAC use, you might get 200+ out of it...

 

Retired people drive slow as it is. :hysterical:

Edited August 17, 2015 at 07:51 PM by Russael

[Hybridbear]

I thought that someone would have figured that out by now but I guess my hints were too suttle.

This one should make it easy.

The EPA rated range is 265 miles.

You seemed to know lots about Tesla so I wondered... Pics?  :camera: The Fusion is a great looking car, but nothing compared to the looks of the Model S.

 

We got another letter from the dealer today saying that they want to buy our Focus lol Ford Credit shows the current buy-out price for the lease as $21,741.11. There's no way it's worth that much lol

[murphy]

You seemed to know lots about Tesla so I wondered... Pics?  :camera: The Fusion is a great looking car, but nothing compared to the looks of the Model S.

 

 

 

I've said before that the Energi with the Tesla battery would be my ideal car.

There are a lot of features in the Energi that are missing from the Tesla.

[Hybridbear]

I've said before that the Energi with the Tesla battery would be my ideal car.

There are a lot of features in the Energi that are missing from the Tesla.

I agree that a Fusion with a Tesla battery would be ideal! Hopefully Ford's next BEV will be something larger than the Focus. I'm sure that Tesla will catch up in the features department with time.

Edited August 18, 2015 at 01:26 PM by Hybridbear

[Russael]

I kind of don't agree with that.  How often would the ICE actually run if a vehicle had that much battery range?  It'd be dead weight, plus the weight of the gasoline you'd need to haul around.  Like Murphy, my ICE usually only runs in the winter, unless I decide to take it on a trip, which is few and far between (although I am taking it on a trip this coming weekend, 300 miles one way).

 

Some sports cars don't contain enough gasoline to go 250 miles on a tank.  In city travel, my Expo will consume 25 gallons within 275 miles and when you step on it, you can feel it trying to suck the fuel out of the other nearby cars.

 

Instead of 5 minutes to refuel, it takes 30 - 40 minutes supercharging with a Tesla.  It's considerably longer, but with supercharging... it costs you nothing.  Cost me $100+ with my Expo once... time is money.

[murphy]

You misunderstand my wants.  Remove the engine and the eCVT and anything else needed for the engine and just add the battery.  Access to the Tesla superchargers or something equivalent would be needed to support long distance travel.

 

It costs me nothing to run my two cars in warm weather.  Note the PV solar panels on the roof of the house.  I haven't paid for electricity since they were installed.  My bill is $7.10 per month which is the minimum bill to maintain an account.

 

Supercharging coincides with a bathroom break and getting something to eat so it's not all lost time.

[Russael]

Ohhhh, I thought you wanted an ICE installed IN a Tesla or something like that.  Didn't realize you wanted the Fusion to have a 265 mile EV range.

[JATR4]

Tesla-Energi.jpg

 

I've said before that the Energi with the Tesla battery would be my ideal car.

There are a lot of features in the Energi that are missing from the Tesla.

My buddy in CA has a Tesla the same color as yours.  He also has panels and pays little to no electric bill.  His other vehicle is a large Lexus but he is seriously considering the new Tesla SUV along with adding more panels.  His Tesla is one of a kind.  He originally ordered the 40kw battery but they never made any.  He actually has the 60kw battery but Tesla limits his range--less than 140 mi--with software.

[murphy]

I've heard about that.  Apparently there was very little demand for the 40 kWh battery.  Now the minimum is 70 and they just announced a 90.

[Rhynri]

 

There are a lot of features in the Energi that are missing from the Tesla.

Like what?  (No snark, just curious.)

[murphy]

I'll give you one out of my list of 23.

 

The seat belt anchor on the B pillar is not adjustable.  Short owners are complaining about the seat belt digging into their neck.  The only solution is to put the seat up really high.

[rsrwc]

I don't know that a mass mailing from the dealer would count as proof that the Energi is holding its value better. My guess is that they sent that letter to everyone who bought a Fusion, regardless of if the Fusion is ICE-only, hybrid or Energi. We recently got a letter from the dealer who does our maintenance work saying that they want to make us a trade in offer on our Focus. There is no reference to the Focus being a Focus Electric in the letter. I'm pretty sure they would not want our Focus Electric. Its resale value is similarly low, like the Leaf. That's why we leased the Focus & bought the Fusion.

How is your Focus Electric battery holding up? I am asking because I am looking for an inexpensive used car for in town use for my high school kid (and my other kids to share also when they are home from college). 

[Hybridbear]

How is your Focus Electric battery holding up? I am asking because I am looking for an inexpensive used car for in town use for my high school kid (and my other kids to share also when they are home from college). 

I have seen a little bit of capacity loss. I am using FORScan to monitor the ETE at a each full charge, like I do in the Energi. We usually see about 19.0 kWh ETE at a full charge. It appears that when the car is new this number should be > 19.5 kWh. We also see significantly more cell voltage variation in the Focus Electric than in the Fusion Energi. Our Focus has about 16,500 miles now. We got it used with about 4000 miles on it. We've used about 2700 kWh to for the 11,500 miles we've driven. In contrast, the Fusion Energi has about 13,000 miles on it but we've only used about 1200 kWh from its pack in the year since we bought it with about 300 miles on the odometer. We also more frequently do deeper discharges in the Focus. In the Energi we rarely go below 25% displayed SOC, except the handful of times (maybe 20?) per year that fully deplete the HVB & use gas. In the Focus we get down to 15% or less displayed SOC about once per week. We also do a lot more highway driving in EV mode in the Focus which puts more stress on the HVB due to the high current draw. It's not uncommon in the Focus to be discharging at a rate of ~150 amps (~50 kW) when driving at high speeds on the freeway uphill.

Edited August 19, 2015 at 01:50 PM by Hybridbear

[rsrwc]

I have seen a little bit of capacity loss. I am using FORScan to monitor the ETE at a each full charge, like I do in the Energi. We usually see about 19.0 kWh ETE at a full charge. It appears that when the car is new this number should be > 19.5 kWh. We also see significantly more cell voltage variation in the Focus Electric than in the Fusion Energi. Our Focus has about 16,500 miles now. We got it used with about 4000 miles on it. We've used about 2700 kWh to for the 11,500 miles we've driven. In contrast, the Fusion Energi has about 13,000 miles on it but we've only used about 1200 kWh from its pack in the year since we bought it with about 300 miles on the odometer. We also more frequently do deeper discharges in the Focus. In the Energi we rarely go below 25% displayed SOC, except the handful of times (maybe 20?) per year that fully deplete the HVB & use gas. In the Focus we get down to 15% or less displayed SOC about once per week. We also do a lot more highway driving in EV mode in the Focus which puts more stress on the HVB due to the high current draw. It's not uncommon in the Focus to be discharging at a rate of ~150 amps (~50 kW) when driving at high speeds on the freeway uphill.

Thank you so much for the detailed information, I sure appreciate it!