Transmission Problems Anyone?

[RbrtinTcsn]

Anyone experiencing intermittent transmission problems with their FFE?

 

I have an almost-new 2015 Ford Fusion Energi with 3400 miles on it that, for the past two weeks, has been suffering an intermittent transmission-related problem.  During the few minutes of a trip, the car will either jerk/shudder under light acceleration, or jerk during light to moderate braking.  It may do this for a few moments, and then stop, and not reoccur for the rest of the trip. The problem is intermittent - it doesn't happen on every trip, or on a particular trip, but the problem has been experienced with both a cold or warm car. It also occurs both using the electric motor, and the ICE.  

 

The car has been used for commuting back and forth to work, and the occasional short trip (~50 miles). It's been treated gently during this entire time. 

 

Otherwise, the car shows no other signs of trouble. An under hood inspection has turned up no loose connections.  No trouble codes have been set. And I haven't figured out how to get the problem to repeat consistently. 

 

I'll take this into the dealership once the problem is consistent enough that a tech will be able to recreate it. 

 

Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated - thanks.   

[Hybridbear]

No trouble codes have been set.

How have you scanned for codes? Have you had the dealer scan for all the Ford proprietary codes? You can also read the proprietary codes with FORScan.

[RbrtinTcsn]

Thanks for the tip about using FORScan.  I purchased a copy of FORScan Lite for my phone, and have been using that to data log. Unfortunately, no trouble codes besides a U0253 (means that the car looses communication with SYNC, but I expect this is par for the course with SYNC, and is unrelated to the transmission problem)

 

I've discovered that the jerk/shudder happens when the electric motor torque output (MTQ_OUT) drops off suddenly from the commanded motor torque (MTQ_CMD), and then recovers just as quickly.  I'm still looking into what's causing this. 

[larryh]

Is this occurring in EV mode?  A drop in MTQ_OUT would suggest there is a power loss to the motor.  The BECM provides BAT_PACK_VOLT (voltage) and BATCURBECM (current).  If the power (voltage x current) drops, that would suggest that their is a problem with the power being supplied to the motor, perhaps a bad connection or a malfunctioning component in the system that provides power to the motor, or the motor itself. 

[RbrtinTcsn]

This occurs both in EV mode and standard Hybrid mode. An interruption in battery power could explain the drop in motor torque, and it has been something under investigation.  While I haven't been logging BAT_PACK_VOLT and BATCURBECM, I have been logging M_INT_V (Motor Inverter Voltage) and G_INT_V (Generator Inverter Voltage).  I haven't seen a consistent drop in either of these two voltages during the drop outs in MTQ_OUT, so I'm left to believe that the battery power is ok.  

Edited July 29, 2015 at 01:46 PM by RbrtinTcsn

[larryh]

You need to observe both voltage and current to determine if there is a power loss.  The only way you can observe the current is via BATCURBECM.  Do you see the power fluctuating on the Empower screen in the car?  You could also look at the accelerator pedal sensor measurements to see if the sensors are working correctly. 

Edited July 29, 2015 at 09:53 PM by larryh

[AzureHydra]

Have not had that problem. But in a parking lot I went from P>R. Slowly backed out, then went from R>D and the car continued to reverse, did D>R and R>P>D and it still reversed. It freaked me out. Going to call the dealership today to see what they have to say about this.

[Fat Fusion]

I had a bad transmission control module, but the failure mode was different.  Mine just lost a lot of power as I recall and a lot of lights flashing on the dash.  New module and no problems 36k miles later.

[Russael]

Have not had that problem. But in a parking lot I went from P>R. Slowly backed out, then went from R>D and the car continued to reverse, did D>R and R>P>D and it still reversed. It freaked me out. Going to call the dealership today to see what they have to say about this.

 

Do you have a Titanium model, or an SE with pushbutton start?  If so, you may not have actually started the car - you may have been in accessory mode.  The vehicle will still let you shift out of park in to any gear in accessory mode, so the parking slot you occupied may have been on an incline to the point where it let you roll out, letting you think you were in reverse, when there was no actual power being sent to the wheels.

 

Obviously you know how to start your car (depress the brake, hit the start button).  A couple people here pressed the start button just before depressing the brake, turning on accessory mode, and thought they were in run (and in some instances, bonked their car against an object).  About the only difference between Run and Accessory is that the light on the start button flashes, and the green drive indicator on the dash will be absent while in accessory.  You'll also receive a yellow message window on the left screen saying something like "Run Power Active".

 

Always make sure you have that green drive indicator before shifting out of park if you drive an SE or Titanium model.

Edited July 30, 2015 at 02:22 PM by Russael

[openair]

Do you have a Titanium model?

What does titanium have to do with this? I think the real question you were asking is "do you have an energi with push button start?“ You can add push button start to the SE as an option option.

Edited July 30, 2015 at 02:15 PM by openair

[Russael]

What does titanium have to do with this? I think the real question you were asking is "do you have an energi with push button start?“ You can add push button start to the SE as an option option.

 

Didn't realize it was an option on the SEs.  I thought it was Titanium specific.

[Fat Fusion]

A couple people here pressed the start button just before depressing the brake, turning on accessory mode, and thought they were in run

 

[RbrtinTcsn]

You need to observe both voltage and current to determine if there is a power loss.  The only way you can observe the current is via BATCURBECM.  Do you see the power fluctuating on the Empower screen in the car?  You could also look at the accelerator pedal sensor measurements to see if the sensors are working correctly. 

 

 I've added HVBAT_V and HV_AMP, which are both available at the Transmission Control Module. Still no drop-off in power that correlates with the drop in output motor torque.  In fact, power seems to be tracking with the motor command, which leads me to believe that the power is going somewhere.  I'll have to do some more research on what might cause the output motor torque to drop when it appears that it is receiving power (incorrect power phasing to the three motor windings? bad torque sensor?).   

 

I need to post some plots of this anomaly for the engineers out there. 

 

The accelerator pedal sensor measurements look good (as well as the right front and left front wheel measurements, PHEV vehicle mode, and many others) - no noise or unexpected drop-outs that might explain the transmission jerk. 

[larryh]

I don't see a transmission control module using FORScan.  These are the modules it detects:

 

HS CAN

 

SOBDMC - Secondary OBD Control Module C
BECM - Battery Energy Control Module
SOBDM - Secondary OBD Control Module A
PCM - Powertrain Control Module
OBDII - On Board Diagnostic II
APIM - Accessory Protocol Interface Module
ACCM - Air Conditioning Control Module
GFM - Generic Function Module
DCDC - DC to DC Converter Control Module
PAM - Parking Aid Module
BdyCM - Body Control Module

 

 

HS2 CAN

 

OCS - Occupant Classification System Module
ABS - Anti-Lock Brake / Traction Control Module

RCM - Restraint Control Module
PSCM - Power Steering Control Module

SCCM - Steering Column Control Module

GWM - Gateway Module A

IPMA - Image Processing Module A

 

 

HS3 CAN

 

DACMC - Digital Audio Control Module C

DSP - (Audio) Digital Signal Processing Module

TCU - Telematic Control Unit Module

ACM - Audio Control Module

IPC - Instrument Panel Control Module

 

 

MS CAN

 

SODR - Side Obstacle Detection Control Module - Right
SODL - Side Obstacle Detection Control Module - Left
FCIM - Front Controls Interface Module
RTM - Radio Transceiver Module
PDM - Passengers Door Control Unit
DDM - Drivers Door Module
GPSM - Global Positioning System Module
DSM - Driver's Seat Module

[RbrtinTcsn]

I don't see a transmission control module using FORScan.  These are the modules it detects:

 

HS CAN

 

SOBDMC - Secondary OBD Control Module C

 

 

The Transmission Control Module (TCM) is also referred to as the "Secondary OBD Control Module C". But it sits on top of the transmission, and controls it, and even the official shop manual refers to it as the TCM. 

[larryh]

I believe the HV_AMP and BATCURBECM are the same measurement.  It would be nice to know how MTQ_OUT (Motor Torque from AC Source) is actually computed. 

 

If the power output from the HVB remains the same during the output power loss by the motor, then the power must be going somewhere.  The only other place is could go is to heat up the motor, wiring, or inverter.  There are PIDs for the motor and inverter temperature, but without a baseline, there is no way to tell if the temperatures are abnormal.  If there is a short in the wiring somewhere, those temperature will not help. 
 

If the power loss occurs during regen, then power supplied to the HVB must drop.  Does this occur?

Edited July 31, 2015 at 05:15 PM by larryh

[RbrtinTcsn]

So, had some time to collect some more data.  As I mentioned before, here's what I'm seeing in the data I'm collecting while the jerks occur:

 

 

larryh - to answer a question from earlier, the HV power tends to track well (though delayed) with the EV Motor Commanded Torque:

 

 

I've noticed something interesting: during the last few days, I don't see a noticeable drop-off in output motor torque like I used to.  Instead, I am seeing a noticeable spike in the engine RPMs.  The plots below show a trip where the jerk happened both during acceleration and regenerative braking:

 

 

Zooming in on the first jerk event:

 

And on the second:

 

 

This new data makes me thing that the transmission problem may not be caused by a faulty Transmission Control Module, nor a bad Motor Torque sensor.  It may be that the problem is being caused by the engine (or at least the engine input into the transmission) slipping. The slipping would explain why, early on, a drop in EV motor torque was seen.  In EV mode, the Internal Combustion Engine basically presents the engine input from moving, allowing torque to be directed to the wheels.  If the engine input starts spinning, then the torque on the EV motor should go down.  Now, the jerk events are large enough that they are being picked up as engine rotation (as seen in the RPMs).

(If you're new to this, and none of this makes sense there are several videos on YouTube that do a good job explaining how the eCVT in a Prius works, which is mechanically similar to that in the Fusion.)

 

If the engine is spinning, one possibility is that the engine damper is slipping. This damper attaches to the flywheel and is similar to a clutch plate, except that it is permanently engaged.  If the flywheel surface is contaminated, then this could slip and catch, causing the jerk. 

 

So that's where I am in the current diagnosis.  The problem is getting a bit more frequent, and noticable, so it should be going to the dealership in the next week or two.  Will keep everyone posted on how the diagnosis and repair. 

[RbrtinTcsn]

If the power output from the HVB remains the same during the output power loss by the motor, then the power must be going somewhere.  The only other place is could go is to heat up the motor, wiring, or inverter.  There are PIDs for the motor and inverter temperature, but without a baseline, there is no way to tell if the temperatures are abnormal.  If there is a short in the wiring somewhere, those temperature will not help. 

 

If the power loss occurs during regen, then power supplied to the HVB must drop.  Does this occur?

 

No noticeable heating of any of the components (I've looked for clues in both the motor and inverter temperatures).  As you might have seen in my previous post, I'm beginning to think that the problem is not in the transmission, but at the engine damper/clutch. 

 

To your second quesiton, I have not see a HVB drop that correlates with the jerk.  

[larryh]

During regenerative braking, the ICE should not be rotating (unless the car is in Low, the HVB is full, and the car is using the ICE to slow down the car, i.e. engine braking).  It should also not be rotating during acceleration in EV mode.  It should only rotate if the ICE is being used to propel the car when not in EV mode.  Power is being diverted from the wheels to rotate the ICE. 

 

It might be easier to understand what is going on if you plotted the power output of the motor, generator, and the ICE.  Power is torque*2*pi*rpm/60 in watts.  You could plot the ICE power, generator, and motor power.  You might want to observe the generator rpms and torque.  In EV mode, the generator should not be propelling or slowing down the car.  The generator rpms should be the negative of the motor rpms.  The generator torque should be a small positive value, see http://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/1880-obd-ii-data-for-ice/?p=13560.  If the generator is being used to start the ICE or the ICE is running, then the values would be different. 

 

The speed of the car is the motor rpms / 139.65 in mph. 

Edited August 3, 2015 at 01:13 AM by larryh

[RbrtinTcsn]

Just an update for everyone...left the car at the nearest dealer on August 4. Dealer was able to duplicate the problem the following week and attempted to correct the problem by clearing the memory on several components.  Not surprisingly, this did nothing to correct the problem. The dealership has contacted Ford Engineering to get advice on how to fix the problem. 

[Doug0716]

Just an update for everyone...left the car at the nearest dealer on August 4. Dealer was able to duplicate the problem the following week and attempted to correct the problem by clearing the memory on several components.  Not surprisingly, this did nothing to correct the problem. The dealership has contacted Ford Engineering to get advice on how to fix the problem. 

Thanks for the update.  Keep them coming for us curious few and in case anybody else needs the info in the future. :)

[RbrtinTcsn]

An update:

 

On September the 3rd, after consultation with Ford Engineering, the dealer service department decided to replace the transmission. The transmission has arrived, but the Fusion has sat waiting for a technician to start the replacement.  

 

As of September 20th, the Fusion has been at the dealership (Jim Click Ford East) for 47 days.  On Wednesday (9/16) of last week, my patience finally ended, and I officially requested refund for the vehicle under the terms of the Arizona Lemon Law. Part of the reason for my decision was the lack of a consistent answer from the service advisor on when the vehicle would be repaired after the replacement transmission arrived. 

 

Given the trouble that dealership and Ford has had diagnosing the problem, and the lack of priority in getting the vehicle repaired, I cannot recommend the purchase of a Ford Fusion Energi (or any Ford vehicle using the same hybrid drivetrain) at this time. It took the dealership, with the assistance of Ford Engineering, four weeks to diagnosis the problem with Fusion - three weeks longer than it took me to come to a similar diagnosis. While sometimes problems do occur, a warranty repair should not take more than a couple of weeks to complete. 

Edited September 20, 2015 at 05:09 PM by RbrtinTcsn

[stevedebi]

An update:

 

On September the 3rd, after consultation with Ford Engineering, the dealer service department decided to replace the transmission. The transmission has arrived, but the Fusion has sat waiting for a technician to start the replacement.  

 

As of September 20th, the Fusion has been at the dealership (Jim Click Ford East) for 47 days.  On Wednesday (9/16) of last week, my patience finally ended, and I officially requested refund for the vehicle under the terms of the Arizona Lemon Law. Part of the reason for my decision was the lack of a consistent answer from the service advisor on when the vehicle would be repaired after the replacement transmission arrived. 

 

Given the trouble that dealership and Ford has had diagnosing the problem, and the lack of priority in getting the vehicle repaired, I cannot recommend the purchase of a Ford Fusion Energi (or any Ford vehicle using the same hybrid drivetrain) at this time. It took the dealership, with the assistance of Ford Engineering, four weeks to diagnosis the problem with Fusion - three weeks longer than it took me to come to a similar diagnosis. While sometimes problems do occur, a warranty repair should not take more than a couple of weeks to complete. 

Sounds reasonable to me. Here in CA it is 30 days out of comission for the same issue.

[RbrtinTcsn]

Another update. 

 

On Thursday, September 24th, the techs at the dealership finished the repair work.  To their credit, they test drove the car over three days to check that the problem had been fixed, and the car looked great when it was delivered. An inspection showed nothing out of place, which isn't a typical experience for me.  There were no problems as I drove the car back home in Hybrid (Auto) mode.  

 

Unfortunately this morning, the problem reappeared. After charging the HV Battery overnight, the vehicle jerked three times while driving during the first mile of travel.  The car was in EV mode, and the problem occurred just as before, both under acceleration and regenerative braking.

 

After charging for a few hours at work this morning, I experienced the problem again while moving the car to another parking spot. After letting the car sit for about an hour, I experienced the problem yet again. The symptoms are the same as before, both times happening with the car in EV mode.

 

I have not driven around in Hybrid/Auto Mode to determine if the problem occurs there as well yet.  

 

I am continuing my effort to get a refund for this vehicle. With the replacement of the transmission, the only things left to replace are 1) the engine friction clutch plate/dampener, 2) the transmission control module, 3) the wiring harness between the transmission and control module, or 4) the engine. Clearly, Ford Engineering, who has been consulted on the repair, does not understand what is wrong with the vehicle.  

 

If you are reading this and deciding whether to buy or lease an Energi, I strongly recommend you look at a different product from a different manufacturer. 

[Margie]

I have a 2015 Energi with less than 6,000 miles on it. I have read all the above posts, but have to admit most of the replies are above my head technically. I was just coming back from a trip and got stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic for 2 hours. After creeping at a snails pace and finally getting through a toll plaza I proceeded to cross over a bridge that has a slight incline at the start. My Energi's transmission whined and slipped and I had no power whatsoever. Thank goodness I had a passenger with me who instructed me to feather the gas, down shift to low and then try to shift back up to drive. This seemed to get me back on track and I finished the rest of the drive, 2 additional hours, without incidence. I brought the car to service and they could find nothing. I find it hard to believe a new vehicle had such a malfunction and there's no trace. Any non technical suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.