kWh used on a full charge

[murphy]

Apparently Ford takes the PHEV designation literally.  It appears that as long as the car will still operate as a hybrid they consider the car to be okay.

 

PHEV - Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle

 

There is no way to measure the charge in the battery directly.  All they can do is measure what goes in and what comes out and use a calculation to "guess" what the mileage will be.

 

Tesla does a similar analysis.  They don't care about range loss.  However if one of the 16 modules in the battery fails, then they will fix it.

 

When my Tesla, at 920 miles on the odometer, dropped from a range of 288 miles to 100 miles they analyzed the battery and gave me a new one.  The Tesla is not a hybrid.  If the battery dies, the car goes no where.

[jsamp]

Exactly! Thankfully, I have a service manager at my local dealer that agrees. We will continue to do more testing. He told me that he is up to the challenge to push Ford on this issue. With only 36k miles, my car tops out at 4.2 kWh. compared to several on this forum, mine is characteristic of a vehicle with twice the mileage. Hoping Ford takes care of this customer. This is my 7th Ford.

 

Here's what you're up against.  This comes from the 2019 warranty booklet, but I suspect it was the same in your 2016.  It states:

 

"Note: High Voltage Battery Gradual Capacity Loss

The high voltage battery will experience gradual capacity loss with time

and use, similar to all batteries, which is considered normal wear and

tear. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity

loss is NOT covered under the New Vehicle Limited Warranty. See your

Owner’s Manual for important tips on how to maximize the life and

capacity of the high voltage battery."

[gwhiz]

I have the original 2013 Titanium FFE. I have about 55k miles Recently the battery stopped charging up to 21-ish and now tops out at 13mi estimate. Chargepoint says it has drawn 5.14 kWh on a typical charge. 

The Ford dealership near me (Santa Monica Ford) is not at all supportive as JSAMP suggests. I'm surprised there isn't some sort of aftermarket battery option after 10 years.

I heard that Ford is spinning off their EVs into a new company.

[jsamp]

On 3/12/2022 at 5:51 PM, gwhiz said:

I'm surprised there isn't some sort of aftermarket battery option after 10 years.

 

These guys have a replacement hybrid battery, and were talking about having an Energi version at one time, but that was a couple years ago and they still only list the Hybrid:

 

https://www.greentecauto.com/product-category/ford/fusion

[mdntblu]

My experience is this: 

2018 FFE 44k miles. ChargePoint charger showing between 3.7 - 4.9 kWh per charge when car is empty. 
Had my car in the dealer for 3 months with a Ford Corporate claim pushing them. After all that they said nothing was wrong and the battery is fine even though they tested it on 3 different road tests and came to the conclusion that 12.5 mi on a charge is fine. Sent me on my way. 
I told Ford Corporate rep I think that’s unacceptable and all he said was try another dealer. 
 

[theterminator93]

3.7-4.9 kWh is a pretty big variance from empty. I assume that is wall draw? Is that level 2 or level 1 charging (I assume level 2 - in which case that's between 3 and 4 kWh battery capacity)?

 

If the battery only holds 3 kWh from empty (measured from the dash/trip computer) then it's pretty heavily degraded, only holding about half of what it should when new. 4 kWh is still degraded but is a little more acceptable given the age of the car. Our '17 with about 63K still holds about 4.4 kWh from empty - about 22 miles.

 

I found these guys sell aftermarket Energi batteries and have a nationwide network of mechanics who should be able to install them. When the time comes, they're on my short list to call.

 

https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/products/ford-fusion-energi-2013-2018-plugin-hybrid-battery

[jsamp]

On 9/5/2022 at 10:52 AM, mdntblu said:

My experience is this: 

2018 FFE 44k miles. ChargePoint charger showing between 3.7 - 4.9 kWh per charge when car is empty. 
Had my car in the dealer for 3 months with a Ford Corporate claim pushing them. After all that they said nothing was wrong and the battery is fine even though they tested it on 3 different road tests and came to the conclusion that 12.5 mi on a charge is fine. Sent me on my way. 
I told Ford Corporate rep I think that’s unacceptable and all he said was try another dealer. 
 

 

Stating how much charge it takes from "empty" doesn't really tell anything.  This is because there is no consistent value for what "empty" means.  If you shut it off exactly when it changes from 0% plug-in power to hybrid mode, that can be somewhat reliable, but even then not consistent.  I have shut the car off with 2 miles and 6% remaining, only to start it up again an hour later and it's now in hybrid mode.  The computer is only estimating how much charge it has.

 

When you plug in at "empty" it could be at 100% full in hybrid mode, or 20% full.  You have no way of accurately measuring how empty the battery truly is.  The best measure we have (not perfect, but best we can do) is the driving test from "full" to the switch to hybrid mode.  The kWh for this test when compared to 5.5-5.6 for a new battery yields the most accurate degradation measure.  It sounds like yours may be around or slightly below 4.0kWh in that test.

 

As for Ford being willing to step up and replace your battery, don't count on it.  There has been only one report on these forums of them replacing a battery in the 9 years the car has been around, and it was unclear if it was truly due to degradation, or something actually went bad in the battery.  After that one replacement, Ford has really dug in their heels (and changed the wording on their warranty) to make sure they don't get dragged into replacing everyone's semi-worn out batteries.

Edited September 25, 2022 at 10:50 PM by jsamp

[cr08]

Can confirm that relying on energy put into the vehicle is not terribly accurate and the driving test is the best option. On my C-Max, I consistently get between 3.5-3.7kwh out of the battery on the driving test (2013, 88k miles). I had it on a public Chargepoint charger the other night with about 25% of the plug-in charge still available and according to Chargepoint it put in about 3.7kwh. Between of conversion inefficiencies, the hybrid portion of the pack being in the mix, and being much smaller packs, it's easy for the numbers from the charging end of things to be a ways off from the actual battery capacity.

[theterminator93]

It has been said here that 120V level 1 charging is 72% efficient and 240V level 2 charging is 82% efficient. You can do the math from there.

[rmc]

I bought a 2019 FFE 2 months ago. The 2019 comes with the 9Kwh battery. It has 32,000 miles. I have a Wallbox smart charger to keep track of how much I charge as well as how much is costs me to charge.

every day when I return home I have a zero battery, I drive about 100 miles per day. 15 miles is all in city driving before I get to highway. On average I get about 15 miles on a the battery only mode. I reset the trip daily to keep track as I troubleshoot. Typically from 100% battery to 0 battery the dash says I use 5.2kwh of the battery. When I look at my charging data from my Wallbox app it shows I only charge on average 5.5kwh per night. Both charger and vehicle dash say vehicle is 100% charged.

 

if I have a 9Kwh battery why can I not use closer to the 9Kwh when using? 
 

if I have a 9Kwh battery why does charging stop around 5.5kwh and say car is 100% charged?

 

How do I increase charging?

How do I increase usable charge?

Do I have dead battery cells?

what is limiting my range?

What is limiting my battery capacity?

[theterminator93]

9 kWh is the capacity of all the cells, not the usable charge. There is capacity reserved at both ends of the charge spectrum to prevent both over- and under-voltage conditions.

 

The car had approximately 7 kWh of usable EV charge when new. This is measured at about 70 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

Hard acceleration wastes more heat than light acceleration, and even 100% regenerative braking is not perfectly efficient. The best way to measure your battery's capacity is to do your best to maintain a steady 35-40 MPH with minimal slowdowns/starts in 70 degree weather.

 

When the temperature drops down into the 30s, for example, your usable capacity will drop 20-30%. If you are using the heater, it plummets even more.

[jsamp]

15 miles from 5.2kWh is rather low.  5.2 kWh from a 2019 is also low.  Not sure where you are located, but it sounds to me like you have a couple issues.

 

1)  It's quite cold in your area.  That will cut down on how much the battery will hold and kill your miles (especially if you are using heat/defrost)

2) The previous owner may have been rather hard on the battery.  If driven aggressively in EV mode a lot it can really degrade the HVB, reducing capacity, even at 30k miles.

 

the 9kWh is used in the following manner (approximate values):

0.5kWh buffer at the top end to prevent overcharging

7.0 kWh for EV use

1.5kWh for hybrid mode, though you can typically only use ~1/2 of that because the bottom end is the buffer to prevent over-discharging. 

So you are getting ~5.2 of the original 7.0kWh which shows high degradation (though some of that is from the cold which improves when temps go up). 

 

Things you can do:

• Pre-heat/defrost the cabin while plugged in using either programmed "Go Times" or remote starting your car while still plugged in (assuming you use 240V charging which it seems you do)
• If you need the heater/defroster while driving, use EV Later mode running the ICE so as to not overtax the battery by driving and heating at the same time.  I know that stinks because the beginning of your commute is when it is most advantageous to use EV. 
• Do not use EV mode above ~50MPH
• accelerate gently in EV mode
• don't leave the battery at 100% charge by programming your charging to finish close to your normal departure time.  I rarely even charge to 100%, leaving ~15% so as to not stress my battery.

I assume you have the same 15 miles of city driving at the end of your daily commute.  Saving some of the battery for the return trip will allow you to use EV mode when it is most advantageous (city speeds, car is already warmed up). Do you charge 2x/day?  That increases wear on the battery.