Charging doesn't stop when car fully charged

[Hokyfan]

I purchased my 2014 Ford Fusion Energi Titanium fully loaded at the end of August 2014.  At the same time I ordered a Clipper Creek HCS-40 Level 2 charger.  Love both.  It's great to have the car fully charge in less than 2 hours.

 

In April of this year I started to notice that the charging light stayed on after My Ford Mobile notified me that the car was charged.  The light would stay on for 15 minutes to 4 hours.

 

I contacted Clipper Creek and to make sure that it wasn't their problem, they replaced the unit with a brand new unit.  That didn't resolve the issue.  I tested the issue using the Level 1 charger and the same thing happened.  I then started checking public chargers and the same thing - when I would return to the car after MFM notification and the charge light would be on.

 

Further information - when I would remove the charge plug from the car, I could hear the relay in the charger open (it's loud) and the relays in the car would then change state.  I knew this was different from before the issue started because I remember hearing the relay open just before I'd get the fully charged notification.

 

I brought the car to the dealership with this issue as well as a number of other minor issues (that I was going to wait till the 20,000 mile service) to have them looked at.  Among those were a segment out on the charge port light and repeated warnings that the left rear cross traffic sensor was bad.

 

After 3 day the car was returned and I was told that the solution to the charging issue was to replace the charge port light ring.  It did not resolve the issue.  (Also - after upgrading the firmware for the cross traffic light - it came back on 2 days after I got the car back.)

 

I'm not a rocket scientist - but I am a physicist, and a certified computer tech.  I know quite a bit about electronics - and I can make a pretty good guess that an output device like the light wouldn't affect the charging circuitry.  Also

 

Anyway - has anyone else had the charging issue.  If so - was it fixed and if so, what was the resolution.

 

Thanks,

[Russael]

I wish you had come here first. :)

 

The car, even though it notifies you that charging is complete, it technically IS complete - for the HVB (high voltage battery).  The reason the car remains in charge mode is that it is topping off your 12V battery and may still be running cooling fans for the HVB as well.

 

What you are experiencing is normal operation.  Disconnecting the car at any time is fine.  Like your cell phone, you can plug it in or unplug it at your convenience.

[Hybridbear]

It is normal. I would leave the car plugged in all the time and use a Value Charge profile to delay charging. This way the car can charge the 12V battery and cool the HVB anytime it sees fit. If you don't keep the car plugged in it cannot do these things.

[rbort]

Bear has a good idea, I have tested that, but decided to only leave the car plugged in when necessary.  Leaving it plugged in seems to run the fan and draw 60-65w all the time.  My technique is to plug the car in with value charge to cool the battery after lots of driving on hot days where I feel the battery temp is elevated.

 

However, if I take a little 6 mile trip and come home and not even use the entire battery pack on country roads of slow speeds, plugging the car in to cool the battery in that case might be overkill in my opinion.

 

Everyone has to decide what's best for them, I don't charge my car every day to 100% so my situation is different.

 

-=>Raja.

[JATR4]

Hokyfan,

 

As Russael said, always come here first with any questions.  There are some very knowledgeable people on this forum.

 

Some indications that may seem abnormal are actually normal. 

[lonzo71]

I plug my car in when I get home and just leave it plugged in till I'm ready to use it. I know my charger uses a little while its not charging, but a buck or two extra is less than forgetting to plug it in.

Edited June 12, 2015 at 04:30 PM by lonzo71

[expresspotato]

However, if I take a little 6 mile trip and come home and not even use the entire battery pack on country roads of slow speeds, plugging the car in to cool the battery in that case might be overkill in my opinion.

 

-=>Raja.

 

Its done like that to preserve the life of the battery.

[Hybridbear]

Bear has a good idea, I have tested that, but decided to only leave the car plugged in when necessary.  Leaving it plugged in seems to run the fan and draw 60-65w all the time.  My technique is to plug the car in with value charge to cool the battery after lots of driving on hot days where I feel the battery temp is elevated.

 

However, if I take a little 6 mile trip and come home and not even use the entire battery pack on country roads of slow speeds, plugging the car in to cool the battery in that case might be overkill in my opinion.

 

Everyone has to decide what's best for them, I don't charge my car every day to 100% so my situation is different.

 

-=>Raja.

In the summer the car seems to run the fan just about all the time when the car is plugged in. A short trip like that can still raise the battery temp 5 degrees. In a common 12 mile one-way trip we make the HVB temp usually rises 10-15 degrees. If you're driving 6 miles one-way you are probably getting home with an HVB that is at least 10-15 degrees warmer than the ambient temp. When you charge overnight the HVB will not cool to the ambient temp. If the car sits unplugged overnight the HVB can cool to around ambient temp.

[stevedebi]

In the summer the car seems to run the fan just about all the time when the car is plugged in. A short trip like that can still raise the battery temp 5 degrees. In a common 12 mile one-way trip we make the HVB temp usually rises 10-15 degrees. If you're driving 6 miles one-way you are probably getting home with an HVB that is at least 10-15 degrees warmer than the ambient temp. When you charge overnight the HVB will not cool to the ambient temp. If the car sits unplugged overnight the HVB can cool to around ambient temp.

HB,

You have to charge sometime. I am choosing to charge overnight by plugging in during the evening, allowing the fan to cool the battery, and then charging at night using value charging. The other option would be to start charging when I plug it in, which would mean charging an already hot battery.

 

Which method is best for an L1 charger?

[Hybridbear]

HB,

You have to charge sometime. I am choosing to charge overnight by plugging in during the evening, allowing the fan to cool the battery, and then charging at night using value charging. The other option would be to start charging when I plug it in, which would mean charging an already hot battery.

 

Which method is best for an L1 charger?

Right. That's why you should plug in immediately but delay charging using Value Charge. Raja still continues to insist that it's better to leave the car unplugged with a hot battery.

[Russael]

Right. That's why you should plug in immediately but delay charging using Value Charge. Raja still continues to insist that it's better to leave the car unplugged with a hot battery.

 

I'd say he's mostly focused on the state of charge of the battery.  He tries to keep it at storage level pretty much all the time, and only charges it fully when he knows he has to go somewhere.

 

For me, I have a flat electric rate for time (it is tiered based on how much I consume), so I plug in the minute I get home.  That way I don't have to worry about it.  I just get in and go. :)

Edited June 13, 2015 at 01:49 PM by Russael

[rbort]

 

 

Right. That's why you should plug in immediately but delay charging using Value Charge. Raja still continues to insist that it's better to leave the car unplugged with a hot battery.

 

 

That's not the case, not what I said above.  Tonight I did a 237 mile trip and I killed the gas mileage, got 78.6mpg with 3 charges (one at home the night before) and two today.  Right now I anticipate the battery to be hot after all the driving today, so I plugged the car in and its waiting to charge until 8am, I give it an 8am to 2pm window.  It topped off the hybrid battery from 1/2 to full and is now waiting to charge, fan is cooling it.  That's good stuff.

 

The short little trip where the battery temp rises 10 degrees or so I'm not too concerned about to cool the battery.  You have to judge when you've overused the battery and when you've just taken a hop and a skip to the grocery store or whatnot.

 

The grocery store trip I'm not going to plug it in and let it cool the battery all night, its not going to make that much of a difference running the fan on it when its so close to ambient.

 

Tonight its running, and the way I have it set I'll wake up in the morning and unplug it when the battery is about 1/2 to 60% full, a start time at 8am gives me the ability to unplug it around 10-11am right where I want it to be, as I won't be using the car tomorrow at all.

 

Attached are a couple of photos from today's trip for your viewing pleasure  :)....wait, this forum only allows for 500kb photos for some reason, I'll post the pictures in my Cmax forum and add a link here when ready.

 

Here is the link if you're interested to go there and take a look:

 

http://fordcmaxenergiforum.com/topic/3850-my-4th-trip-out-of-state-to-nh-this-year-i-killed-the-mpg-tonight/

 

-=>Raja.

Edited June 14, 2015 at 05:28 AM by rbort

[rbort]

So I did the value charging last night, here is what the log looks like:

 

When I came out to unplug the car this morning the fan was running fast and slow alternating.   I opened the tailgate and checked the battery pack, opened the back right door and checked also where the disconnect plug is behind the seat and it feels pretty warm.  Last night was 60F and the battery was cooled all night with the fan with no charging, but since 8am it started charging and it seems like it got a little warm being charged even with the fan running all night.  Its probably best to unplug it now and let it rest instead of subjecting it to 2.5 more hours of charge to bring it to full power and then to have it sit full unused today (don't have plans for the car anyways today).  Its still cool in the garage now and I tried to check under the car but I can't figure out where the exhaust air is coming in or going out to measure it with an IR gun.  Anyone figure out where the vents are at?

 

-=>Raja.

[stevedebi]

Right. That's why you should plug in immediately but delay charging using Value Charge. Raja still continues to insist that it's better to leave the car unplugged with a hot battery.

HB,

Yeah, I learned it from your posts. Not sure if I ever said thanks - so, Thanks!

[rbort]

Last night I figured out the value charge discrepancy when plugging in.  Remember how Bear and Larry I believe said the car charges some right away and the rest later, presumably because the car doesn't like the battery to sit in a very low state?

 

Well I came home from Providence yesterday with 1/2 a hybrid battery left, I love this car by the way, I give it a GPS destination home so the car "knows" where I'm going not sure if it helps but I remember reading about "smart discharge" where the car knows how far it has to go and tries to make it.  Anyway, I made it.

 

So I went to plug in the car but then decided to make a change in the value charging first.  By default value charging is a 6 hour window and I had mine from 8am to 2pm, but I went and changed it from 8am to 4pm.  Then I plugged in the car and as I had anticipated, the car sat there waiting to charge until 8am this morning.  By the way, it was 58 last night when I drove home and the cooling fan sounded like it was running at granny slow speed before I went to bed.

 

Prior to this with a 6 hour window the car would charge right away, last time it did it for about 19 minutes or so, and then switched over to waiting to charge.  The answer is, the car is charging right away because it figures it needs to be at 100% by the end of the value charge window, if the window is too small then it charges now, and then waits to do the rest in the window.

 

It has nothing to do with the level of charge of the battery from what I could demonstrate to myself.

 

My car now is at about 70%, I'm going to go unplug it, I will need 100% at 6pm this evening, so I'll unplug now, plug back in around 4 pm so it will be ready on departure.

 

-=>Raja.

Edited June 18, 2015 at 04:13 PM by rbort

[larryh]

This is from the FAQs at the MFM web site:

 

Q: Why does my vehicle start charging immediately when I have a Value Charge Profile created for this location?

A: The vehicle overrides the Value Charge Profile if the State of Charge of the traction battery is less than 10%. After the vehicle charges up to 10%, it will delay the remainder of the charge until the lower-cost times selected in the Value Charge Profile.

 

The car will be forced to use higher cost windows if you don't allow enough charging time. But it may also use them if the SOC is low.

Edited June 18, 2015 at 06:28 PM by larryh

[Hybridbear]

I give it a GPS destination home so the car "knows" where I'm going not sure if it helps but I remember reading about "smart discharge" where the car knows how far it has to go and tries to make it.  Anyway, I made it.

 

So I went to plug in the car but then decided to make a change in the value charging first.  By default value charging is a 6 hour window and I had mine from 8am to 2pm, but I went and changed it from 8am to 4pm.  Then I plugged in the car and as I had anticipated, the car sat there waiting to charge until 8am this morning.  By the way, it was 58 last night when I drove home and the cooling fan sounded like it was running at granny slow speed before I went to bed.

 

Prior to this with a 6 hour window the car would charge right away, last time it did it for about 19 minutes or so, and then switched over to waiting to charge.  The answer is, the car is charging right away because it figures it needs to be at 100% by the end of the value charge window, if the window is too small then it charges now, and then waits to do the rest in the window.

The first part sounds like you're referring to EV+ mode. This is very useful in a PHEV.

 

Your theory regarding the Value Charge window size doesn't seem to make sense for us. Our $ period is from 3:00-10:00 am. With a 240V charger the longest the HVB ever takes to charge is 2 hours & 5 minutes.

Edited June 18, 2015 at 08:01 PM by Hybridbear

[stevedebi]

The first part sounds like you're referring to EV+ mode. This is very useful in a PHEV.

 

Your theory regarding the Value Charge window size doesn't seem to make sense for us. Our $ period is from 3:00-10:00 am. With a 240V charger the longest the HVB ever takes to charge is 2 hours & 5 minutes.

HB,

Raja is using an L1 charger, maybe that is what he meant about the six hour window.

[rbort]

Larry:

 

 

 

But it may also use them if the SOC is low. 

 

The Key word in your statement must be "may".  My car didn't charge at all last night with the battery "dead" at 0% and 1/2 hybrid remaining -- I ran out of the HVB about 1.5 miles from home and made it the rest of the way the hybrid battery.  Does your car charge some every time you plug it in with value charge turned on?  Mine didn't yesterday that's why I'm thinking its not always the case?

 

Steve is correct, I'm using at L1 charger.  To test my theory with the L2 charger, Bear needs to close the window down to 1 hour as the value charging window is only adjustable in increments of hours.  2 hours might be big enough not to show the charging to make the target 100% at the end of the value charge window.

 

If I give mine a 6 hour window, it charges for a few minutes and then stops to wait.  If I give it an 8 hour window, it never charged one bit.  Maybe at 7 hours it might not either as the car thinks it will be done within 7 hours, in reality it only took about 5 hours 42 minutes, see below (in two pieces as I stopped the charge in the morning until later).

 

-=>Raja.

[larryh]

To test my theory with the L2 charger, Bear needs to close the window down to 1 hour as the value charging window is only adjustable in increments of hours.  2 hours might be big enough not to show the charging to make the target 100% at the end of the value charge window.

 

What's the point of doing that?  If you don't allow enough time for the car to charge in the lowest cost charge window, it is going to have to charge using higher cost charge windows.  It is going to look for the next highest cost charge window and start charging at the beginning of that window (or immediately if you plug the car in in the middle of that charge window).  It will then stop when there is sufficient time to complete charging in the lowest cost charge windows.   Finally, it will resume charging at the start of the lowest cost charge windows and complete charging. 

Edited June 19, 2015 at 11:22 AM by larryh

[Hybridbear]

Our car does not always charge immediately when in the hybrid ETE range. It has only done it once, in fact. The only time I've seen it charge immediately was on L1.

Edited June 20, 2015 at 01:25 PM by Hybridbear

[rbort]

Case in point goes to prove what I said, the car charges immediately if it cannot finish charging the car in the value window.  The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't seem to top off the battery because its too low before waiting, it has to do with value window sizes and the charging rate (120 vs 240v).

 

Larry would like to see data about cooling vs not cooling overnight vs charging immediately battery temps.  I know it will probably take you a little bit to get it done and you would have to repeat the test under similar conditions (OAT, charge level, etc). so when you have a chance to come up with that data I'd love to look at it and many thanks!

 

-=>Raja.

Edited June 19, 2015 at 02:29 PM by rbort

[larryh]

If the SOC of the HVB is low, it may override the value charge settings and charge immediately.  This has nothing to do with window sizes and charging rates.   It overrides value charging with both Level 1 and Level 2 charges.  When it does as you say, you simply don't have value charging set up properly. 

 

I always charge the car in the early morning hours.  So I don't know how much the HVB cools down over night (if I did not charge the HVB).

Edited June 19, 2015 at 02:53 PM by larryh

[rbort]

 

 

If the SOC of the HVB is low, it may override the value charge settings and charge immediately.

 

When have you seen this condition Larry, when the car was hot, cold, drained below 1/2 hybrid or still in the "green" (above 0%) on the main battery?

 

Everything is all setup properly here, I'm going to leave the window at 8 hours for now and see if it every charges up some when I come in late at night and feel the need to cool the battery (which is not always).  Last night after an 8 mile trip back I didn't think it was necessary with OAT of 60F so I just let it sit at 48% charge level.

 

-=>Raja.

Edited June 19, 2015 at 03:04 PM by rbort

[larryh]

I have already mentioned the MFM Web site FAQs that state two reasons why the car overrides the Value Charge Profile and charges the HVB immediately after plugging the car into the charger:  low SOC and low HVB temperature.  You have already seen two examples starting with this post http://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/1683-obd-ii-data-for-hvb/?p=21630 where there are 5.5 hours of lower cost value charge windows to complete two hours of charging, yet the car charges immediately when I plug it in during the highest cost charge window. 

Edited June 19, 2015 at 08:38 PM by larryh