Interesting argument -- Does anyone know someone with a plug-in that does not plug in?

[meyersnole]

Lexus Bypassing Plug-In Hybrids, Looking At Fuel Cells, Maybe EVs

 

 

Interesting argument about why they are not investing in plug in technology, it just adds weight if you don't plug them in and people are just buying them for the tax incentives and carpool access.

 

While I know of many examples of buying the car for carpool access, I have not heard of people not plugging them in.  I would guess if you lived in an urban setting and charging was problematic (street parking or assigned space in a garage) this probably happens. Never thought of how much of an issue this is though being spoiled with my two car garage with the L2 charger mounted on the wall.

 

How common do you think the above scenario is? I am sure it happens, but would not think it prevalent.  

 

 

 

 

 

[lonzo71]

living in the DC metro, I wouldnt doubt there are a few since its so easy to get in and out of the HOV lanes and some people are that cheap around here.  I plug in when I can, sadly, I cant at work and my commute is 48 miles one way....

[JATR4]

Lexus Bypassing Plug-In Hybrids, Looking At Fuel Cells, Maybe EVs

 

 

Interesting argument about why they are not investing in plug in technology, it just adds weight if you don't plug them in and people are just buying them for the tax incentives and carpool access.

 

While I know of many examples of buying the car for carpool access, I have not heard of people not plugging them in.  I would guess if you lived in an urban setting and charging was problematic (street parking or assigned space in a garage) this probably happens. Never thought of how much of an issue this is though being spoiled with my two car garage with the L2 charger mounted on the wall.

 

How common do you think the above scenario is? I am sure it happens, but would not think it prevalent.  

I love EV only and charge when I can--level 2 at home.  But with gas prices as low as they are I am at the break-even point so I don't save any money by charging.  There are many places where charging costs more than using gas.  Here are two charts of U.S. electric prices:

 

http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

 

http://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/

Edited April 16, 2015 at 02:29 PM by JATR4

[Hybridbear]

Lexus Bypassing Plug-In Hybrids, Looking At Fuel Cells, Maybe EVs

 

 

Interesting argument about why they are not investing in plug in technology, it just adds weight if you don't plug them in and people are just buying them for the tax incentives and carpool access.

 

While I know of many examples of buying the car for carpool access, I have not heard of people not plugging them in.  I would guess if you lived in an urban setting and charging was problematic (street parking or assigned space in a garage) this probably happens. Never thought of how much of an issue this is though being spoiled with my two car garage with the L2 charger mounted on the wall.

 

How common do you think the above scenario is? I am sure it happens, but would not think it prevalent.  

I find his comment hard to believe.

 

“The reality is that in most places, people only buy plug-in hybrids for the tax benefit or carpool lane benefit—and then they never plug them in,” Templin continued.

I'd like to see him show us evidence of this.

 

I like this comment from a reader:

 

Ironically, this strategy will appear brilliant in a few years, as Lexus inevitably but belatedly comes to the EV and PHEV party. It will be able to sell 200,000 cars before it runs out of federal EV tax credits, not having frittered them away on 10 KWH batteries in the trunk of its current hybrids. Battery prices will be down sharply, density will be up, and some manufacturers out of tax credits. Well-heeled buyers (with tax bills larger than $7500) will flock to buy a Lexus, and Lexus will be able to earn a tidy profit on each car while still having a net price lower than the other guys. Its fleet fuel economy average will be stellar as tougher requirements kick in, and this will give it room to earn more money by selling SUV gas guzzlers. FCVs? Just a smokescreen for this strategy...

I've been saying for awhile that I think Ford is doing this to a certain extent. They're gaining experience with the Focus Electric and Energi vehicles which will allow them to sell more competitive EVs in a few years when Nissan, Tesla and GM are running out of tax credits available. At least, this would be a smart strategy for Ford. There is some risk in the tax credit being cancelled, but there's also potential upside if Obama is successful in his efforts to increase the tax credit and turn it into a rebate instead of a tax credit.

Edited April 16, 2015 at 02:47 PM by Hybridbear

[stevedebi]

Lexus Bypassing Plug-In Hybrids, Looking At Fuel Cells, Maybe EVs

 

 

Interesting argument about why they are not investing in plug in technology, it just adds weight if you don't plug them in and people are just buying them for the tax incentives and carpool access.

 

While I know of many examples of buying the car for carpool access, I have not heard of people not plugging them in.  I would guess if you lived in an urban setting and charging was problematic (street parking or assigned space in a garage) this probably happens. Never thought of how much of an issue this is though being spoiled with my two car garage with the L2 charger mounted on the wall.

 

How common do you think the above scenario is? I am sure it happens, but would not think it prevalent.  

I keep a running tab on my MPGe and electric costs. If gas got cheap enough, in theory I would be better off using hybrid only for my Energi - but only if my MPGe goes below 50. And actually, my last fill up was 49.21 MPGe. But that included a lot of road miles, and is not normal. Prior to that tank my worst was 56, and MPGe is right at 60.38 for the average.

 

But you know what? I might still use plug-in - it is just so cool.

[meyersnole]

I keep a running tab on my MPGe and electric costs. If gas got cheap enough, in theory I would be better off using hybrid only for my Energi - but only if my MPGe goes below 50. And actually, my last fill up was 49.21 MPGe. But that included a lot of road miles, and is not normal. Prior to that tank my worst was 56, and MPGe is right at 60.38 for the average.

 

But you know what? I might still use plug-in - it is just so cool.

 

That is the other thing that crossed my mind, once you try driving all electric (highway driving aside) you really crave it (or I do) even driving efficiently to extend it as long as you can. Stealth driving!  :shift:

[meyersnole]

I like this comment from a reader:

I've been saying for awhile that I think Ford is doing this to a certain extent. They're gaining experience with the Focus Electric and Energi vehicles which will allow them to sell more competitive EVs in a few years when Nissan, Tesla and GM are running out of tax credits available. At least, this would be a smart strategy for Ford. There is some risk in the tax credit being cancelled, but there's also potential upside if Obama is successful in his efforts to increase the tax credit and turn it into a rebate instead of a tax credit.

 

That is an interesting thought, but if that is there stance I would hate to play poker with them as every quote I see from Toyota on the topic seem to be anti PHEV as a solution -- instead dumping their money into hydrogen. Maybe there will be a breakthrough in that arena that will make them look smart down the road, but all the development money seems to be in battery. This last quote seems to have them second guessing a bit with the acknowledgement they may make a BEV. They do have a lot of experience with hybrid and are dipping their toe in the water with the Prius.

 

The tax credit scenario is an interesting thought, but if the republicans take the presidency in 2016 I would think that the credit is toast. And if CAFE standards are reduced then it could all collapse. The hope will be squarely on Tesla pulling the market forward by making a truly competitive car that is affordable to the masses. As long as Tesla stays somewhat competitive it looks like GM will compete and that should drag the rest.

 

The Bolt will also be very interesting... but will be interesting at $40K ($37.5K) as it would at $30K? When does new battery technology push the price to a point where we do not need incentives?  

[meyersnole]

I love EV only and charge when I can--level 2 at home.  But with gas prices as low as they are I am at the break-even point so I don't save any money by charging.  There are many places where charging costs more than using gas.  Here are two charts of U.S. electric prices:

 

http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

 

http://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/

 

 

I am confused by your statement. I also live in North Carolina and I think that my electrical rates are around 11 cents. I can fully charge my battery for right around $0.75 and drive ~25 miles. Had to look up the gas prices (been months since I have been to a gas station) and they are around $2.30 in my area. So if I get 50mpg that is $1.15 vs $0.75 to plug it in... unless I am thinking about this wrong or your rates are much higher than mine?

 

Now when I drive highway speeds I go into EV Later as it just seems to be more efficient, but I do very little of this type driving unless I am traveling. Maybe you do more? Then I guess the math would be closer to break even as the range would drop to about 15-18 miles. Split the difference, 16.5 miles for $0.045 cents per mile and $0.0575 per mile for gas at $2.30. I don't drive highway speeds on electric so I really don't know the range. Given the above I would still think that charging would still have benefit, although slight.  

 

I was just in California and was shocked by their rates... looking at your tables and see how this solution would be a harder sell in Alaska, Hawaii (wow!), and parts of the Northeast (gas is also more expensive in some of those places). 

[JATR4]

I am confused by your statement. I also live in North Carolina and I think that my electrical rates are around 11 cents. I can fully charge my battery for right around $0.75 and drive ~25 miles. Had to look up the gas prices (been months since I have been to a gas station) and they are around $2.30 in my area. So if I get 50mpg that is $1.15 vs $0.75 to plug it in... unless I am thinking about this wrong or your rates are much higher than mine?

 

Now when I drive highway speeds I go into EV Later as it just seems to be more efficient, but I do very little of this type driving unless I am traveling. Maybe you do more? Then I guess the math would be closer to break even as the range would drop to about 15-18 miles. Split the difference, 16.5 miles for $0.045 cents per mile and $0.0575 per mile for gas at $2.30. I don't drive highway speeds on electric so I really don't know the range. Given the above I would still think that charging would still have benefit, although slight.  

 

I was just in California and was shocked by their rates... looking at your tables and see how this solution would be a harder sell in Alaska, Hawaii (wow!), and parts of the Northeast (gas is also more expensive in some of those places). 

I filled up one of my vehicles--not the Energi--today and paid $2.09.  Using 16 miles as an average range on the $0.75 full electric charge $2.09 worth of electricity gets 44.59 miles (209/75 X 16= 44.59).  That is close to what I can get in hybrid mode.  I also have a 5% gas card that reduces the range to 42.4 miles (209 X .95/75 X 16=42.4).  With some promotions I paid as little as $1.81 on a few fillups this winter--not for the Energi of course. 

 

$2.10 is pretty much break even for me but I like EV only so I will continue to charge no matter what the price is.  This past winter my electric range was as low as 14 miles.  I do have a couple of trips each week at 68 mph which is not the most economical use of electricity and reduces my electric range.  I rarely--if ever--get 25 miles on a full charge.  I would estimate my average electric range at less than 18 miles.

Edited April 16, 2015 at 05:48 PM by JATR4

[stevedebi]

I am confused by your statement. I also live in North Carolina and I think that my electrical rates are around 11 cents. I can fully charge my battery for right around $0.75 and drive ~25 miles. Had to look up the gas prices (been months since I have been to a gas station) and they are around $2.30 in my area. So if I get 50mpg that is $1.15 vs $0.75 to plug it in... unless I am thinking about this wrong or your rates are much higher than mine?

...

You also have to factor in the inefficiency of the charger. My level 1 charger is only 72%. It isn't that much difference, but if you are counting...

[meyersnole]

You also have to factor in the inefficiency of the charger. My level 1 charger is only 72%. It isn't that much difference, but if you are counting...

 

My $0.75 calculation to fill my battery was with a Level 1 charger, I really do not have anyway to measure it today.. but I assume it is with in a few cents. I was also being generous I thought with the mileage (allowing for 50mpg on the highway for hybrid use with out charging).

 

I honestly do not give it much thought as it is not a financial decision for me, if it was I would have never bought this car.  I enjoy riding around in EV mode, so I do. My power comes from Sharon Harris nuclear plant , so I feel good about a little less carbon ending up in the air. Duke energy is also investing in solar projects in our state and others -- but wish they were doing more. But others in the community, like SAS, are also investing. 

[murphy]

I have 10 kW of solar PV panels on my roof.  It costs about 5 cents to fill my battery.  That does not include the cost of the panels which will eventually be paid for by the savings.

[stevedebi]

My $0.75 calculation to fill my battery was with a Level 1 charger, I really do not have anyway to measure it today.. but I assume it is with in a few cents. I was also being generous I thought with the mileage (allowing for 50mpg on the highway for hybrid use with out charging).

 

I honestly do not give it much thought as it is not a financial decision for me, if it was I would have never bought this car.  I enjoy riding around in EV mode, so I do. My power comes from Sharon Harris nuclear plant , so I feel good about a little less carbon ending up in the air. Duke energy is also investing in solar projects in our state and others -- but wish they were doing more. But others in the community, like SAS, are also investing. 

I calculate that at 96 cents or so! Not really changing your point, I realize, but some of us are interested in MPGe calculations.

[meyersnole]

I got my figure by plugging my L1 charger into a killawatt, hitting reset, and checking what it said in the morning when I unplugged the car. Did this a few times after draining the battery to the point the engine came on. Each time it came within a few pennies of 75 cents.  

 

Not very scientific... and was done right around the time that I got the car. I was going to link the post but I think that the content has dropped off as I could not find it anymore. 

[stevedebi]

I got my figure by plugging my L1 charger into a killawatt, hitting reset, and checking what it said in the morning when I unplugged the car. Did this a few times after draining the battery to the point the engine came on. Each time it came within a few pennies of 75 cents.  

 

Not very scientific... and was done right around the time that I got the car. I was going to link the post but I think that the content has dropped off as I could not find it anymore. 

Interesting. I've never measured mine. I got the efficiency figures from larryh posts. He is very reliable.

[meyersnole]

Interesting. I've never measured mine. I got the efficiency figures from larryh posts. He is very reliable.

 

Agreed!