Energi pricing?

[jeff_h]

Heads up - the Build & Price for the Fusion Energi is now available on the Ford.com site.

 

 

Also - may be important for those who have pending orders:

 

Take a second look at the "incentives & offers" page from the Ford.com main page, using a zip from TX shows a $1,500 cash back on the Energi, however using one from VA shows nada.  So your mileage may vary, and so will your rebate I guess.

Edited January 15, 2013 at 06:16 PM by jeff_h

[jsamp]

Energized.  Good analysis, but you're missing the conclusion.  Taking your Energi at $38,700 and applying all the rebates (I'm in CA so I'll include the state too) you get $34,245 (with destination charge).  The base Fusion you compare to is $22,495 for a difference of almost $12,000.  Using your calculations (they are skewed by the way because you assume city mileage for all of it, which dramatically favors the Energi) you save $1895 per year.  That means you won't break even until 6.2 years.  That is assuming all other things to be the same and gas price stays @ $4.00 average. 

 

If you were to use the combined mileage instead of city only (I would argue a more accurate calculation), the payback goes up to over 8 years.  Not many people hang onto a car for that long, though in this economy that is changing.  But then, those who would buy an Energi would probably never buy a base Fusion as an alternate, they would likely buy a SE 1.6 Ecoboost which gets even better mileage (causing the payback to get even longer).

 

I don't buy into the "Energi will be cheaper to maintain" argument.  Though some maintenance things will be cheaper, repairs will not.  Every time my Escape Hybrid has gone down, I've had to take it in because it was a "hybrid related component" that A) wouldn't give me a error code and B) somehow was not covered under the hybrid warranty (one time it was).  Paying Dealership rates for repairs adds up quickly.  I can do lots of repairs, but if I can't diagnose the problem to know what to repair, it doesn't do any good.

 

Conclusion: For those who will hang on to an Energi for a long time, it will pay back eventually.  For those who value environmentally friendly cars no matter the price, the payback is immediate.

[jeff_h]

somehow was not covered under the hybrid warranty (one time it was).

 

I hear you on the "hybrid related components" - our Escape Hybrid was great and only had to go in for unplanned service one time in almost five years, when the CEL light came on.  The diagnosis was that the ventilation fan in the rear for the hybrid battery had stopped working, but they deemed it NOT covered under the hybrid warranty.  I asked how that could be, as if the vehicle was not a hybrid then that part would not even exist... but sorry Charlie, it's not covered.

[Energized]

Energized.  Good analysis, but you're missing the conclusion.  Taking your Energi at $38,700 and applying all the rebates (I'm in CA so I'll include the state too) you get $34,245 (with destination charge).  The base Fusion you compare to is $22,495 for a difference of almost $12,000.  Using your calculations (they are skewed by the way because you assume city mileage for all of it, which dramatically favors the Energi) you save $1895 per year.  That means you won't break even until 6.2 years.  That is assuming all other things to be the same and gas price stays @ $4.00 average. 

 

If you were to use the combined mileage instead of city only (I would argue a more accurate calculation), the payback goes up to over 8 years.  Not many people hang onto a car for that long, though in this economy that is changing.  But then, those who would buy an Energi would probably never buy a base Fusion as an alternate, they would likely buy a SE 1.6 Ecoboost which gets even better mileage (causing the payback to get even longer).

 

I don't buy into the "Energi will be cheaper to maintain" argument.  Though some maintenance things will be cheaper, repairs will not.  Every time my Escape Hybrid has gone down, I've had to take it in because it was a "hybrid related component" that A) wouldn't give me a error code and B) somehow was not covered under the hybrid warranty (one time it was).  Paying Dealership rates for repairs adds up quickly.  I can do lots of repairs, but if I can't diagnose the problem to know what to repair, it doesn't do any good.

 

Conclusion: For those who will hang on to an Energi for a long time, it will pay back eventually.  For those who value environmentally friendly cars no matter the price, the payback is immediate.

 

 

The combined EPA mileage of the base engine hardly makes a difference compared to city, changing from 22mpg to 26 mpg.  The average commute in the US is traveled at a vehicle speed of 32 mph, which would fall under the EPA's definition of "City" driving.

 

If you are going to compare prices, you should also compare equal content to be fair.

 

The Energi SE includes as standard items that are optional or not available on the non-Energi:

 

Leather seats

MyFord Touch with Sirius ($1,000),

Heated Seats,

MyFord Mobile with a 3G data connection, (not available on non-Energi models)

Dual Electronic Climate Control

 

The non-Energi SE starts at $23,700, before any of the options listed above.   

 

The Energi SE $34,245, so the difference is not as great as you suggest.

 

 

Comparing Titanium models, the Energi would be $34,950 vs $30,200 for the non-Energi, a difference of $4750.

 

For the average commuter, the pay back on the $4750 is not nearly as long as you suggest, plus you get the added benefit of car pool lane access, 3G data access, etc.

[ChuckJ]

The combined EPA mileage of the base engine hardly makes a difference compared to city, changing from 22mpg to 26 mpg.  The average commute in the US is traveled at a vehicle speed of 32 mph, which would fall under the EPA's definition of "City" driving.

 

If you are going to compare prices, you should also compare equal content to be fair.

 

The Energi SE includes as standard items that are optional or not available on the non-Energi:

 

Leather seats

MyFord Touch with Sirius ($1,000),

Heated Seats,

MyFord Mobile with a 3G data connection, (not available on non-Energi models)

Dual Electronic Climate Control

 

The non-Energi SE starts at $23,700, before any of the options listed above.   

 

The Energi SE $34,245, so the difference is not as great as you suggest.

 

 

Comparing Titanium models, the Energi would be $34,950 vs $30,200 for the non-Energi, a difference of $4750.

 

For the average commuter, the pay back on the $4750 is not nearly as long as you suggest, plus you get the added benefit of car pool lane access, 3G data access, etc.

Not to mention, that the trade-in price will be higher.

 

ChuckJ

[jsamp]

If you are going to compare prices, you should also compare equal content to be fair.

 

It is clear we are talking apples and oranges (to quote another post).  For your assumptions, your conclusion is correct.  For my assumptions, mine is correct.  No need to continue to belabor the point.

[Energized]

It is clear we are talking apples and oranges (to quote another post). For your assumptions, your conclusion is correct. For my assumptions, mine is correct. No need to continue to belabor the point.

Yes, it's clear you are comparing a stripped vehicle to a very well equipped one that has leather and MyFord Touch and heated seats and 3G connection, etc etc.

 

The cost difference between comparably equipped cars is approx. $4750 after tax credits.

 

You contend it would take more than 13 years to save $4750, which is laughable.

Edited January 17, 2013 at 04:09 AM by Energized

[Energized]

Not to mention, that the trade-in price will be higher.

 

ChuckJ

 

Yes, that's a very good point.  The Fusion Hybrid commands a greater trade-in price today than its comparable non-hybrid model.

 

The pay back figures need to take that into account. 

[Mr. Fusion]

Okay, here's my final rant on Fusion Energi pricing. Conclusion: Ford screwed up BIG time.

 

If you look at years of payback (number of years it would take for the savings in gas $ to make up for the extra price you pay for the car), the Energi does not make sense.

 

The Fusion Energi payback is

13.3 years vs the std Fusion 2.5 liter

14.6 years vs the 1.6l EcoBoost

32.6 years vs the Fusion Hybrid; and

YOU NEVER GET THERE vs the Chevy Volt.

 

Nobody expects to own the car for 13 years much less 32. So financially, it does not make sense to buy the Energi (plus the battery won't last that long). If you are buying it for the Green credibility, you're paying way too much for that. You'd do better with the Volt, or Prius Plug-in, or whatever else.

 

If they had priced it more moderately (in the $35K range). It would make more sense, with paybacks in the 6-8 year time frame. Once you take away the tax rebates for Plug-in vehicles, these payback times get FAR worse.

 

Assumptions: 12,000 total miles/yr, $4/gal gas, 10¢/kWh electricity, 5000mi/yr electric (Energi) and 10,000 mi/yr electric (Volt), Fed rebates only. Using MSRP plus $795 destination fee.

I don't quite agree with your payback numbers... I did another way of looking at it (Attached 12,000 & 17,000 mile jpgs) where I compared a 1.6EB Fusion, a Fusion Hybrid, a Fusion Energi, a C-Max Energi and a Volt in both base MSRP and loaded up MSRP taking into account 12,000 mi/year and 17,000 mi/year.

 

Using fueleconomy.gov, I used their electricity costs and their EPA estimated numbers for both 12,000 and 17,000 / year (Numbers change to favor highway when you choose 17,000). I went with 17,000 because that fits my situation.

 

A few things:

- The Volt requires Premium Gas

- The base Fusion Energi is nicely loaded with Heated Leather Memory seats (Heated leather is a $1,700 Volt option)

- Volt is only a 4 passenger vehicle, based on the smaller Cruise

- Doesn't take into account any other discounts, which right now, favor the Volt

- EPA estimates, although they provide a baseline, we're seeing the Fords underperforming in real-life driving. No clue how to take that into account.

- All MSRP's include the Fed tax rebate

 

If you're really penny pinching and want the lowest cost of ownership, then the C-Max is the way to go.

 

If your work is 38 miles round trip, that's more like the 12,000 / year, and the Volt is in its sweet spot, yet the C-Max might still cost less overall.

 

I think GM was stupid (In terms of cost) to make a vehicle that is the only thing coming out of a plant. When the Volt sells below forecasted, then the plant gets shut down for several weeks, followed by all the bad press around it.

 

When the Fusion Energi under sells, then all you do is build less Energi's and more regular ones. No plant shutdown. When gas balloons to $7.50 / gal, then the Energi mix is higher. All under one assembly line.

 

For me, I know I'm paying a premium for the look of the Fusion over the C-Max. I'll keep my Escape Hybrid for any SUV needs.

 

Also, this spreadsheet tells me I should just buy the Fusion Hybrid, but I like the idea of having a plug-in.

Edited January 20, 2013 at 05:54 PM by Mr. Fusion

[jsamp]

Mr Fusion,

Excellent analysis.  You state your position and assumptions well.  As my miles are closer to your 12,000 analysis, and I can't plug in at work so my all electric miles would be less (~5000 instead of 7000), the balance tips more away from the Energi.  I agree no matter how you slice it, by bottom line $ the Hybrid is a better buy than the Energi (there are other non-financial reasons to favor the Energi, but those cannot be included in a calculation).

 

The part that is not applicable in my analysis is the assumption that if an 'option' is standard on one car (ex: leather heated seats on the Energi) that I am required to add it to any other car when I do a comparison.  If I were going to buy a std Fusion or a Volt, and were not going to get the leather option, then I wouldn't include it in my analysis.  Some say that is an unfair comparison, I say it is my CHOICE.  Ford is the one making the comparison unfair on themselves by trying to force me to get certain features that I don't want/need.  If they don't like the unfair comparison, they should leave options as options like their competitors. 

[Mr. Fusion]

Yeah, I hear ya jsamp. It's so hard to get an apples to apples compare, then you throw in an electric range that can have different benefits to different people.

 

My friend has a Volt and he (of course) loves it. He did say the heated seats are great because he thinks he can stay warm using less energy.

 

I think Ford's position is to offer more than a boring looking car. Low priced C-Max or a more expensive Fusion.

 

My best tank in my Escape Hybrid is 50.5mpg (rated at 34), so I'm anxiously looking forward to seeing if I can exceed the EPA rating.

 

To be able to choose something other than a Prius is so nice.

[jsamp]

 To be able to choose something other than a Prius is so nice.

 

AMEN to that!  :)

[ChuckJ]

Mr. Fusion:

Nice effort.  Do I understand correctly that at the end of the time period you do not add back the trade-in value?

 

ChuckJ

Edited January 22, 2013 at 02:28 AM by ChuckJ

[Mr. Fusion]

Mr. Fusion:Nice effort.  Do I understand correctly that at the end of the time period you do not add back the trade-in value? ChuckJ

Exactly.

 

I had no idea what the residuals were. Couldn't find anything on the net.

[energifan]

Aren't most of us that are interested in a PHEV not necessarily in it to save money, but more because of the green factor anyways?

 

I do agree that this technology won't be adopted by the masses unless the cost savings to become more apparent.

[rprobst]

Yes, I am willing to pay a premium to reduce my footprint while driving. I think this is just like the Ferrari owner who is willing to pay a premium to look like a master of the universe while driving.

[sntacruzn]

Ok - Very interesting read.   So here is my problem and would like some advise:

 

We now own a EV Focus.  Love it, but no charging station at the new office in Sunnyvale, makes it a local car around town only now, so not used for commuting.

 

I like both the Hybrid Fusion and the EV Fusion.  My commute is about 80+ miles / day.   Can someone advise if they would be in this situation what the analysis would be for the right option.  I want to lease and not buy!

 

I'm also not Real clear on any incentives (ST or Fed or Dealer) at this point.  My local Ford dealer sadly was beyond clueless on the Energi.

 

Funny thing is when we looked at the Focus, we were looking but ended up buying after the $39k fusion the dealer took $7500 off the top and then another $2k for good faith, plus I received a $2500 check from the ST of CA and the residual ended being around $17k.  I pay about $299 / month for the 3 year lease option. 

[DelS]

Just received an email from an 'internet guy' at a West L.A.(ish) Ford dealer. He agreed to my offer(at this point) for $300 over invoice for putting in my Energi order. I go in on Friday, and plan to order up a tuxedo black Titanium NRG with all bells and whistles, maybe some 19" rims too. I'm pretty stoked about his quick, easy 'yes' about the price. Let's see if it holds.

 

Now if I can find a decent aftermarket tip for that butt ugly single exhaust pipe.

Edited February 10, 2013 at 07:48 AM by DelS

[meyersnole]

The energi only has 17" rims... the extra unsprung weight from 19's would probably cut pretty hard into the electric range. And if you want to stay with the low rolling resistance tires then your going to drop around $400 per tire (not even sure if that tire is available in the right size to maintain proper circumference).

 

Probably best to stick with the 17s

[DelS]

The energi only has 17" rims... the extra unsprung weight from 19's would probably cut pretty hard into the electric range. And if you want to stay with the low rolling resistance tires then your going to drop around $400 per tire (not even sure if that tire is available in the right size to maintain proper circumference).

 

Probably best to stick with the 17s

 

They don't offer 19's on the NRG(Energi)-- but I will forgo the extra couple of miles of electric range and mpg for the aggro look of the 19".     They can swap out the 17's from another car on their lot, or I'll just go aftermarket.    Besides, I'll be able to plug-in at my job sites.   Hopefully they'll be able to eventually adjust the software to recalculate for the different circumference.

Edited February 10, 2013 at 07:57 AM by DelS

[meyersnole]

My dealer mentioned that they would be willing to swap wheels too, I think I need to figure out why they limited to the 17s before I do it though. There is so much technology on this car making me hesitant to mess with anything before I understand the decision. There has to be a reason they limited the energi to 17s rather then just ease of build.

 

But if they just thought the energi was a low production car I may also go that route. Not sure yet how to confirm this. There is so much that is not yet known about this car making this purchase both exciting and scary at the same time.

[Mr. Fusion]

The MKZ Hybrid losses 2 MPG with it's wheel and tire combination.

 

The 19" wheels/tires would have the same diameter as the 17's.

 

Strange that a wheel option doesn't exist.

[meyersnole]

That is my point Fusion... the heavier wheels exist on the hybrid configurations but not the energi. It is strange, but before messing with that choice I would like to know why.

[shaggy314]

Just received an email from an 'internet guy' at a West L.A.(ish) Ford dealer. He agreed to my offer(at this point) for $300 over invoice for putting in my Energi order.

 

Same deal I got. Good job! See if you can get you some mud flaps... lol

[DelS]

Same deal I got. Good job! See if you can get you some mud flaps... lol

I'll only take mud flaps if they throw in fuzzy dice and and a pair of bull balls.  Oh didn't you hear they can't fit a gun rack in one, either.