Energi pricing?

[jsamp]

Ford hasn't announced official pricing yet, but I found a dealer listing Energi prices on the web today. I'm not sure if they can be trusted, but here's what they list for MSRP:

 

Fusion Energi SE $39,495

Fusion Energi Titanium $40,995

 

If those are real numbers, Ford just killed the Fusion Energi. The C-Max Energi is priced ~$7,500 more than the C-Max Hybrid. There's no way they can convince me that the Fusion Energi should be $12K more than the Fusion Hybrid. I'll wait until I hear official numbers from Ford, but if these numbers prove true, they just lost me as a customer for the Energi.

[jeff_h]

I bet the extra battery capacity is expensive, and I bet that the availability of a tax credit is figured into those prices, if they are correct. Not to say I'd run out and buy at one that price, however if I were going to buy one I would take the Titanium for the $1,500 more.

Edited November 1, 2012 at 09:09 PM by jeff_h

[jsamp]

But my point is that the extra battery only costs $7500 in the C-Max. Why would that same extra battery cost $12K in the Fusion? Both have the same 21 mile range, thus the same battery capacity.

 

I'm SURE the fed rebate is factored in to the price. Happens all the time. The one thing they can't factor into the price so easily is the varying state rebates.

[jeff_h]

But my point is that the extra battery only costs $7500 in the C-Max. Why would that same extra battery cost $12K in the Fusion? Both have the same 21 mile range, thus the same battery capacity.

 

Probably due the CMax Energi being priced directly against the Prius Plug-in, where as the Fusion Energi is more mid-size and priced against an Accord Plug-in? Though I don't know the pricing on the Accord, just saw mention of it in the youtube video referenced in a Hybrid thread.

[jsamp]

Now Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com) is listing the same MSRP as that dealer I found. Seems everybody has pricing except ford.com. kbb lists Dealer Invoice as $3K below MSRP. Energi SE $39,495/$36,495 and Energi Titanium $40,995/$37,880 (MSRP/Dealer Invoice).

 

Jeff - I see where you're coming from, I just don't buy that kind of pricing justification BS from car manufacturers. I don't pay $X because the competition charges $X. If the additional battery costs $7750 in the C-Max, it costs ~$7750 in the Fusion, period.

[jsamp]

Okay, here's my final rant on Fusion Energi pricing. Conclusion: Ford screwed up BIG time.

 

If you look at years of payback (number of years it would take for the savings in gas $ to make up for the extra price you pay for the car), the Energi does not make sense.

 

The Fusion Energi payback is

13.3 years vs the std Fusion 2.5 liter

14.6 years vs the 1.6l EcoBoost

32.6 years vs the Fusion Hybrid; and

YOU NEVER GET THERE vs the Chevy Volt.

 

Nobody expects to own the car for 13 years much less 32. So financially, it does not make sense to buy the Energi (plus the battery won't last that long). If you are buying it for the Green credibility, you're paying way too much for that. You'd do better with the Volt, or Prius Plug-in, or whatever else.

 

If they had priced it more moderately (in the $35K range). It would make more sense, with paybacks in the 6-8 year time frame. Once you take away the tax rebates for Plug-in vehicles, these payback times get FAR worse.

 

Assumptions: 12,000 total miles/yr, $4/gal gas, 10¢/kWh electricity, 5000mi/yr electric (Energi) and 10,000 mi/yr electric (Volt), Fed rebates only. Using MSRP plus $795 destination fee.

[robertlane]

Are these prices official yet?

[jeff_h]

Are these prices official yet?

 

They are not posted on the Ford site yet, but are posted at KBB at the below link, so I think they are pretty firm.

 

http://www.kbb.com/ford/fusion-energi/2013-ford-fusion-energi/styles/?intent=buy-new

[jsamp]

Even funnier: the Chevy web site lists the MSRP for the Ford Fusion Energi. If you go to the Volt and use their "compare" page, you can pick a fusion energi and it lists MSRP as $39,495 (with destination charge) for the SE.

 

Both Chevrolet and Kelley Blue Book list Ford's price but Ford doesn't.

[pluggedin]

jsamp, your numbers are close for the SE and Titanium. Chevy and KBB are in the know somehow.

 

Here is the bad news. The numbers you quote are for standard equipment only (which are substantial) and the price goes up from there, depending on what additional options/packages you want.

 

Still further bad news. Forget the dealer invoice price. I think you are going to find most dealers ADDING to the MSRP, not negotiating down. That is my experience anyway and I hope yours is different.

 

I was told the order bank is now open for the plugin Fusion so you should be able to approach your local dealer to spec one out.

 

I found that if you spec out the Titanium with all the same options as the SE Luxury, it will cost you about $7-800 more for the Titanium. No contest, the Titanium wins.

 

Oh, and the tax credit is not incorporated in the price either. It's up to you to take the credit on your 2013 taxes and I believe the credit available will be around $3,750, which is about half what the Chevy Volt gets because it has a larger battery and the credit is figured off the battery size, I believe.

 

Like you, I am just feeling my way around because Ford has not made anything public yet. I am still waiting for the car to show up on their site.

 

I am shocked at the price for the car though, it's about $7,000 more than I expected it to be. You may be able to buy a loaded CMax energi for about $38,000 (all in) but not with as many available options or the luxury afforded the Fusion.

[rprobst]

Now we know what the base Accord plug-in hybrid will cost: $39,780

 

http://www.egmcartech.com/2012/11/29/2014-honda-accord-plug-in-hybrid-price/

 

But need to do a true comparison by figuring what is included in that price versus what is optional on the Fusion Energi, or vice versa.

 

[rprobst]

Of course, if I bought an Accord plug-in hybrid, I'd have to add in a couple thousand more for some custom body work to get rid of that god-awful front end. Talk about ugly!

[Taylorjd]

I have heard rumors of a possible price drop or extra incentives for the Energi, anyone else hear anything? Sounds like the Tax Credit is going to be $3,750 #backatyou

[rprobst]

Taylorjd, I have not heard those rumors, but I sure would like to. I hope we see price competition develop between the Fusion Energi, the Volt, and the Accord plug-in (and between the C-Max Energi and the plug-in Prius). Love to see the manufacturers fight for our business, and thus speed up the adoption of plug-ins. Not to mention, I'd like to save some money here.

 

So please share whatever rumors you have heard.

Edited December 5, 2012 at 12:01 AM by rprobst

[pluggedin]

Taylorjd, I have not heard those rumors, but I sure would like to. I hope we see price competition develop between the Fusion Energi, the Volt, and the Accord plug-in (and between the C-Max Energi and the plug-in Prius). Love to see the manufacturers fight for our business, and thus speed up the adoption of plug-ins. Not to mention, I'd like to save some money here.

 

So please share whatever rumors you have heard.

I have heard rumors of a possible price drop or extra incentives for the Energi, anyone else hear anything? Sounds like the Tax Credit is going to be $3,750 #backatyou

Yes, I would like to see a price drop or incentives too. I just hope they are retroactive to my deal.

 

I found I had to tell the salesman and salesmanager what the Federal tax incentive was going to be on the Energi...they thought it was $7500 and I think that was part of their reasoning for MSRP plus a premium. Seems they wanted part of that.

[rprobst]

And that's another moving part of the puzzle... I have heard rumors that the White House plans to propose a change to the tax incentive for 2013, so that it won't be proportional to the battery size -- above a certain threshold, all EVs and plug-in hybrids would get the same size incentive. I don't know if this rumor is true, but looking at the pricing difference between the Fusion Energi and C-Max Energi Chevy Volt, I wonder if Ford knew what is about to be proposed -- or at least, heard that same rumor and believed it.

 

Pluggedin,definitely agree with your point that you'd hope changes in incentives are retroactive. I'd hate to buy today, with one set of incentives, and then discover I could have saved money by waiting. And of course, that's why this stuff is not discussed openly, because even the discussion could freeze the market.

 

(edited to fix slip: my brain thought "Chevy Volt" but my fingers typed "C-Max Energi")

Edited December 6, 2012 at 08:06 PM by rprobst

[jsamp]

With the Fed budget situation what it is, I can't imagine any incentive increases for Plug-ins... only reductions. I would doubt they would abandon the pro-rata setup based on battery size, because that would eliminate any incentive for auto manufacturers to go bigger on batteries. As it is, the current rebate tops out at 16kWh batteries, so the BEV's are not getting any more rebate than a Volt.

 

I can't see Ford pricing in a 'rumor'. It's just as easy to get burned doing that as it is to make more $.

 

While the salesmen might be clueless on the rebate, I doubt Ford is. They do their homework before introducing a price.

 

My only hope is in them offering a "baseline" model of the energi at a lower price than the "SE Luxury" model. Otherwise I will not buy one.

[rprobst]

I can't see Ford pricing in a 'rumor'. It's just as easy to get burned doing that as it is to make more $.

 

While the salesmen might be clueless on the rebate, I doubt Ford is. They do their homework before introducing a price.

 

Jsamp, here is how I think it could happen.

 

Imagine that you're the Ford executive responsible for pricing the Fusion Energi. Now imagine that you have been given a background briefing on a possible change to a "flat" incentive policy that might be proposed, or might not -- in short, information about as reliable as a rumor. And nobody wants to talk about it openly, because everyone (EPA, Ford, GM, Toyota...) knows that if the buying public believes incentives will be better next year, current-year sales will tank -- so it's also about as verifiable as a rumor.

 

If the policy change happens, the incentive for the Fusion Energi and the Volt will be the same, even though they have different battery sizes. If it doesn't happen, the Volt price after incentives will be $3750 less next year, just as it is this year. Do you price the difference in? That is, do you assume the change won't happen and set the Fusion Energi price based on the current proportional incentive structure?

 

I wouldn't. I would set the Fusion Energi price to just under the Volt price. If the change happens, I win; my customers get the same incentive as GM's customers, even though the battery is smaller. If it doesn't happen, I can always try to get approval from my boss for several thousand dollars in dealer cash per vehicle. But I wouldn't even do that until I saw that I was losing sales to Volts on price.

 

Above all, I wouldn't discuss this, and I would hope that nobody speculated about this on a public forum.

[jsamp]

I wouldn't. I would set the Fusion Energi price to just under the Volt price. If the change happens, I win; my customers get the same incentive as GM's customers, even though the battery is smaller. If it doesn't happen, I can always try to get approval from my boss for several thousand dollars in dealer cash per vehicle. But I wouldn't even do that until I saw that I was losing sales to Volts on price.

 

I suppose that's possible, except for the fact that Ford did not even do that. They are HIGHER than the Volt, even with equal incentives. To me, they've shot themselves in the foot, unless there is a plan for a lower end, stripped down version of the Energi that they will introduce only if the incentives do not change.

[ChuckJ]

Okay, here's my final rant on Fusion Energi pricing. Conclusion: Ford screwed up BIG time.

 

If you look at years of payback (number of years it would take for the savings in gas $ to make up for the extra price you pay for the car), the Energi does not make sense.

 

The Fusion Energi payback is

13.3 years vs the std Fusion 2.5 liter

14.6 years vs the 1.6l EcoBoost

32.6 years vs the Fusion Hybrid; and

YOU NEVER GET THERE vs the Chevy Volt.

 

Nobody expects to own the car for 13 years much less 32. So financially, it does not make sense to buy the Energi (plus the battery won't last that long). If you are buying it for the Green credibility, you're paying way too much for that. You'd do better with the Volt, or Prius Plug-in, or whatever else.

 

If they had priced it more moderately (in the $35K range). It would make more sense, with paybacks in the 6-8 year time frame. Once you take away the tax rebates for Plug-in vehicles, these payback times get FAR worse.

 

Assumptions: 12,000 total miles/yr, $4/gal gas, 10¢/kWh electricity, 5000mi/yr electric (Energi) and 10,000 mi/yr electric (Volt), Fed rebates only. Using MSRP plus $795 destination fee.

We like the Volt very much, especially the size of the trunk with the back seats down, but 4 seats instead of 5 is stopping that one for us- right now.

 

ChuckJ

[rprobst]

... Ford did not even do that. They are HIGHER than the Volt, even with equal incentives.

 

Yeah, you're right. I said what *I* would do, not what Ford actually did. Maybe they are competing on a price-per-seat basis? :)

 

I definitely hope we see some healthy price competition between the plug-in hybrids. That's what will drive the volumes.

[shaggy314]

Reminder about the tax credit, even though it is half that of the Volt, is that it is a TAX credit. Short version is that it is worth more than a discount. A $3750 credit will offset $25k-ish in income earned (based on your tax rate, your mileage may vary). :-)

 

The sucky part is that you don't get to claim it until next year's taxes. :-(

 

Yes, the Energi makes less sense on a pure economic scale, but people still buy cars that WAY more expensive for silly reasons like they look cool. I mean $1.6 million for a car??? I'm buying my Energi because I like the way it looks, has may cool features, a 110 outlet if the power goes out in house (ha), and maybe, just maybe the US uses a little less imported gas. I think it looks better than the Volt, CMax, or Prius. Oh and to score with the hippy chicks (not).

 

I do hope to keep this through at least one battery swap.

[DelS]

Okay, here's my final rant on Fusion Energi pricing. Conclusion: Ford screwed up BIG time.

 

If you look at years of payback (number of years it would take for the savings in gas $ to make up for the extra price you pay for the car), the Energi does not make sense.

 

The Fusion Energi payback is

13.3 years vs the std Fusion 2.5 liter

14.6 years vs the 1.6l EcoBoost

32.6 years vs the Fusion Hybrid; and

YOU NEVER GET THERE vs the Chevy Volt.

 

Nobody expects to own the car for 13 years much less 32. So financially, it does not make sense to buy the Energi (plus the battery won't last that long). If you are buying it for the Green credibility, you're paying way too much for that. You'd do better with the Volt, or Prius Plug-in, or whatever else.

 

If they had priced it more moderately (in the $35K range). It would make more sense, with paybacks in the 6-8 year time frame. Once you take away the tax rebates for Plug-in vehicles, these payback times get FAR worse.

 

Assumptions: 12,000 total miles/yr, $4/gal gas, 10¢/kWh electricity, 5000mi/yr electric (Energi) and 10,000 mi/yr electric (Volt), Fed rebates only. Using MSRP plus $795 destination fee.

jsamp, I appreciate a good rant-- and your laying out these figures nicely, but I believe your assumption of electric mileage is low, from my vantage.  I'd double that electric mileage, since I live in the city, almost never do I commute more than 20 miles one way(usually about 10), and can plug-in at work.  I'll spend most of my time in ICE mode on weekends and on long trips.    I've already passed over the Volt(can't seat 5 and is a bit tiny behind the wheel) and the C-Max(not a looker).     

 

OK here's my rant on my soapbox.   You've neglected my main reason for buying a vehicle powered by electricity.  And that is ethics.  That petro you are touting as less expensive in your assumptions?  We subsidize it in a myriad of sordid ways not extrapolated out in the mpg number on that window sticker. So it is not really less expensive by any means, when you take your time and calculate out THOSE costs.   When I finally buy it, my FFE titanium will have all the extra options, will be powered mostly by the solar panels on my roof, just like my wifes EV she bought back in the spring.    

Edited January 14, 2013 at 08:23 AM by DelS

[jsamp]

jsamp, I appreciate a good rant-- and your laying out these figures nicely, but I believe your assumption of electric mileage is low, from my vantage.  I'd double that electric mileage, since I live in the city, almost never do I commute more than 20 miles one way(usually about 10), and can plug-in at work.  I'll spend most of my time in ICE mode on weekends and on long trips.    I've already passed over the Volt(can't seat 5 and is a bit tiny behind the wheel) and the C-Max(not a looker).     

 

OK here's my rant on my soapbox.   You've neglected my main reason for buying a vehicle powered by electricity.  And that is ethics.  That petro you are touting as less expensive in your assumptions?  We subsidize it in a myriad of sordid ways not extrapolated out in the mpg number on that window sticker. So it is not really less expensive by any means, when you take your time and calculate out THOSE costs.   When I finally buy it, my FFE titanium will have all the extra options, will be powered mostly by the solar panels on my roof, just like my wifes EV she bought back in the spring.    

 

You bring up several valuable points that skew the analysis.  While they apply to you, your situation is not typical.  Many people (I might say most) cannot plug in at work (no charging port, Secured building, can't run a cord out the window).  Most people don't have solar on their roof, so they pay for the electricity.

 

I hear you on your rant, but you can't put a $ figure on the subsidies that means anything in a 'how much you will pay our of your wallet' analysis.  Ethics do not have a $ value, they are a personal values item.  There are also other items to consider when you get into that realm (what source is your elecricity, does it include the pollution from fossil fules, etc).  This is not discounting your argument, it's just not possible to answer that for everyone in a single post.

[Energized]

There are other benefits to the Energi that haven't been captured.

 

The Energi is eligible for car pool lane status in states such as NY and California. That's a HUGE benefit that isn't available on the Fusion Hybrid. Time is money!

 

The Energi is also eligible for tax credits at the state level in some states such as California. Some businesses are also offering cash to employees that buy plug-ins.

 

For California, there is a $1500 tax credit on top of the $3750, which totals $5250.

 

The Energi will also likely have less frequent scheduled maintenance. For example, since the engine won't be running as much, oil changes will occur less frequently. "Braking" is done primarily through the regeneration process, so the the brake pads and disc will last substantially longer than normal.

 

An example of commuting 22 miles each way, and the worst case is your employer doesn't (yet) have anywhere to plug in. You do this for 11,400 miles/year:

 

The base Fusion has a City EPA rating of 22. You will use 2 gallons of gas per day x 5 days/week x 52 weeks = 520 gallons X $4.00 = $2080

 

The Energi has a City EPA rating of 44 (after you've depleted the battery). Half of your commute is electric, half is gas powered at twice the MPG as the base model.

 

If you can't charge at work, you will use $1040 in gas for the full year and the rest will be electricity.

The electric part of the commute would be 7.1kW-h x $0.10/kW-h = $0.71 each day x 5 days/week x 52 weeks = $185/year

Total gas + electric = $1,225

 

If you are able to recharge at work (for free!), the total for the year would be dramatically less, $185/year.

 

So, tax credits, car pool lane access, fewer oil changes and brake jobs, plus the capability to provide power during a blackout, all added to a significant improvement in gasoline mileage and of course dramatic cost savings while in electric mode all adds up to proposition worth considering for the forward thinking, early adopters who aren't adverse to technology or afraid of new and different things.

Edited January 15, 2013 at 02:53 AM by Energized