Ford techs have to personally see intermittent electronic issues

[openair]

I've been having a few intermittent electronic issues for a few months.  The vehicle has been into 2 different dealerships 4 times.  The longest a dealership has kept the vehicle to try to replicate these issues is just under 24 hours.  The 2nd dealership has actually been talking to a ford corp hotline and has asked for more time with the vehicle.  The first dealership, it felt like I was wasting their time.

 

I have had to convince about 4, maybe more, different ford employees that the intelligent access issue is not simply weather.  The issue is this: sometimes, intermittently, the intelligent access with not unlock or lock a door from a certain door handle.  Sometimes the driver's door handle.  Sometimes a passenger door handle.  I am fairly certain is not just simply weather because when one door handle doesn't work after multiple tries (Glove on/off.  Running my finger all over the handle/lock hatch marks.) another door handle works, 5 seconds later, on the first try.  This has repeatedly happened.  It has worked flawlessly in worse weather and not worked in better weather.

 

Obviously there are certain weather conditions, such as a layer of ice from freezing rain, when I do not expect it to work.

 

Both dealerships and the ford.ca rep I have spoken to after a rep from this forum relayed my issues say a ford tech needs to personally see and experience any issue before anything can be done.

 

It struck me today that if companies that produce parts for computers, such as CPUs, HDDs, RAM, GPUs, had a similar stance they would quickly go out of business as people shifted to companies that have the proper software to subject these components to stress or more thorough tests to make intermittent issues that would appear very infrequently under normal operating conditions appear within a given time frame.

 

CPUs and RAM can be subject to stress tests to have a crash that may only occur once a month under normal operation occur within a few hours.  Overclocker's use software such as this to prove their overclock is stable to the rest of an overclocking community.

 

HDD's have TRIM software that can identify bad sectors that would otherwise take months of normal use, possibly until the drive were near full, to appear.  Or be unknown to the user until the drive was completely dead.  Or they could not read a certain piece of data.

 

Does Ford really not have anything similar to test a car electronics?  The obvious answer is yes they do.  The car generates error codes from errors it detects that can be pulled by techs at a later date.  I say this is insufficient for diagnosing a problem that potentially originates in the same CPU, RAM, etc used to control and generate these error code reports.

 

Relying on these error codes, generated under normal operating conditions, would be similar to relying on windows alone to prove an overclock stable.  With only windows and normal operating conditions it could take months.  With the proper stress testing diagnostic software it takes less than 8 hours.

Edited March 4, 2015 at 11:01 PM by openair

[Doug0716]

You have to be able to recognize there is a problem before you can solve it.  If the handle doesn't think there's a hand there then it's not going to know that there's a problem.  I doubt that any of the dealerships have the necessary hardware or training to know how to test each individual pieces, and even if they do if those pieces aren't causing a problem while they're testing it, what are they supposed to do?

 

You're also comparing simple component testing with complex system testing... it's not that easy.

[meyersnole]

I had issues with my key as well, I think this was solved by replacing the battery. You might want to give it a try. I agree that it seems way too soon for the battery to fail and the car is suppose to warn you of a low battery (mine did not). 

 

Not exactly sure what your issues are but I was having issues with gaining access to the car, or the car complaining that the key was not present when it actually was. Sometimes it recognized the key was there a min later other times I had to stick it in the center console in the the little box to start the car or use the code to gain access.

 

Since replacing the batteries I do not recall having any issues, and the doors seem to be much less finicky than they were before.  

[openair]

You have to be able to recognize there is a problem before you can solve it.  If the handle doesn't think there's a hand there then it's not going to know that there's a problem.  I doubt that any of the dealerships have the necessary hardware or training to know how to test each individual pieces, and even if they do if those pieces aren't causing a problem while they're testing it, what are they supposed to do?

 

You're also comparing simple component testing with complex system testing... it's not that easy.

 

It not knowing there is a problem is exactly why you cannot just depend on these error codes.  Obviously if it doesn't know there is a problem there is no error code.  I know it's difficult but what am i supposed to do? If the once a week these things act up never coincides with the vehicle already being at a dealership what i am supposed to do? Just accept it doesn't work right and move on?  Accept i paid $800 for a navigation system that doesn't work as well as the free one on my android phone? I think you and ford know what that would mean for my future vehicle purchases.

 

These components are tested within a system.  Through the system's operating system.  A very similar situation, if both systems are designed with thorough enough checks and balances.

 

I had issues with my key as well, I think this was solved by replacing the battery. You might want to give it a try. I agree that it seems way too soon for the battery to fail and the car is suppose to warn you of a low battery (mine did not). 

 

 

I will give that a try.

Edited March 5, 2015 at 01:56 AM by openair

[jeff_h]

I had issues with my key as well, I think this was solved by replacing the battery. You might want to give it a try. I agree that it seems way too soon for the battery to fail and the car is suppose to warn you of a low battery (mine did not). 

 

That was also my first thought on reading this, that maybe one of the fobs has a weak battery.

 

Openair - have you traded fobs to use the other one regularly and see if it still happens?  It may have nothing to do with the issue, but is easy to check to help rule out something as simple as a weak battery.  

[openair]

That was also my first thought on reading this, that maybe one of the fobs has a weak battery.

 

Openair - have you traded fobs to use the other one regularly and see if it still happens?  It may have nothing to do with the issue, but is easy to check to help rule out something as simple as a weak battery.  

 

I will try putting new batteries in both and use the other one for a while.  It's worth a shot though i would think a weak battery would affect all door handles similarly.

[Doug0716]

You're also comparing automated hardware tests (run on software, but testing hardware) to hardware and software that requires user input which can't be automated in the same way. I've dealt with Kia and I've delt with Mercedes and they all operate the same way. I had to get corporate involved both times and I had to figure out the steps to reproduce both times before it was addressed in each vehicle. I never said Ford shouldn't do anything about it, I'm just saying that if a problem is not reproducable then it is nearly imposible to diagnose and if you think any other manufacturer would treat this any different you're kidding yourself.

Edited March 5, 2015 at 02:55 AM by Doug0716

[blars]

I have noticed that if someone else tries to open a door when I am not in range with the fob, and then I attempt to open the door, the door will remain locked.  Sometimes multiple tries will get me in, sometimes not, in which case I have to press unlock on the key fob.  I don't know if this is a security feature or not.  If this is built in, a weak fob battery might make sense, where you touch it and it doesn't recognize the fob being within range at first, then subsequent attempts fail.  Just a guess.

[Timewellspent]

I have noticed that if someone else tries to open a door when I am not in range with the fob, and then I attempt to open the door, the door will remain locked.  Sometimes multiple tries will get me in, sometimes not, in which case I have to press unlock on the key fob.  I don't know if this is a security feature or not.  If this is built in, a weak fob battery might make sense, where you touch it and it doesn't recognize the fob being within range at first, then subsequent attempts fail.  Just a guess.

 

I experience this as well.  If the wife grabs her door handle before I am able to grab mine it remains locked for a few attempts.

[Rhynri]

Here's another question:  where are you experiencing this at?  It's a known problem that a Kwiktrip (gas station) in my town has a security system that scrambles the key sensors and makes it impossible to lock the car using the touch surfaces, and occasionally results in the car not being able to see the key on the inside of the car if there is a window or door open.  Something to consider.

[openair]

If this is built in, a weak fob battery might make sense, where you touch it and it doesn't recognize the fob being within range at first, then subsequent attempts fail.  Just a guess.

 

Sounds like a plausible explanation for my intermittent issues with intelligent access.  I am hesitant to say it is fixed, because it was intermittent to begin with, but it has now been 6 days since i replaced the batteries and have not had this problem since.

 

Here's another question:  where are you experiencing this at?

Various locations.  Garage at home.  Work parking lot.  Girl friend's apartment building parking lot.

Edited March 11, 2015 at 10:06 PM by openair

[shaggy314]

The times I've noticed the door not open for my touch, I've had the key in the opposite pocket...twist my hip and it works. You can always test locking with a finger press.

 

I work in IT and I tell users I can solve an intermittent problem intermittently... but a reproducible one, 100%.

[openair]

You can always test locking with a finger press.

The key fob has always been in the pocket closest to the car. What is the above supposed to mean? As I said in my original post, it had often failed to lock as wel.

[Hybridbear]

The key fob has always been in the pocket closest to the car. What is the above supposed to mean? As I said in my original post, it had often failed to lock as wel.

I think the idea is that sometimes unlocking doesn't work, but locking still does. For example, if someone grabs a door handle before I unlock the door the car seems to prevent me from unlocking for a certain number of seconds. But I can still lock he car by touching the lock area. This shows that the issue isn't my key, but rather normal behavior. Sometimes I cause this myself by grabbing the handle to open the car before the car decides to unlock.

[openair]

So the fact that I also had the lock fail to work multiple times suggests it was not simply related to the sensor detecting unkeyed (snow or girlfriend) access attempts (on other door handles)?

[openair]

well it's kind of sad that I'm happy about it but... Yey! Orange wrench icon for a power train fault!

 

It's just above freezing (1C) and snowing. It'd cold, wet and slushy out. Went to go get lunch at noon. First start orange wrench. "Check manual" message. Power train fault. Shut it down and started again. Same thing.

 

Drove to get lunch. Start her up again after. No orange wrench. Seems as intermittent as my previous issues. At least this one should have an error code and they'll have somewhere to start. The error code will be stored from these two fault events for them to pull when I get to a dealership, correct? They won't have to personally experience this as well?

[larryh]

If the wrench light comes on, you may be able to see the DTCs in ET mode. 

[openair]

The orange wrench came on twice and not since. There are no DTCs listed in ET.

 

You said "may." Does that mean that even though I don't see any DTC in ET ford may still be able to pull one or unless the wrench stays on there is little point in taking it into a dealership?

Edited March 26, 2015 at 10:07 PM by openair

[larryh]

There are two sets of DTCs:  Ford proprietary DTCs which are displayed in ET mode (generally when the wrench light is on), and ODB II DTCS which can only be displayed using a scanner (generally when the MIL is on).  I don't know if they will be able to find any DTCs. 

[openair]

Another power train fault. Similar conditions to last time. +1C. Fresh wet snow. Remote start. Orange wrench on start up. See manual message on left lcd. Drove for about 3km.

 

Shut down and start up in ETM with the orange wrench. No errors listed. Three starts with the orange wrench. Drove another probably 10km. Orange wrench gone on next start.

Edited April 5, 2015 at 07:19 PM by openair

[Hybridbear]

Another power train fault. Similar conditions to last time. +1C. Fresh wet snow. Remote start. Orange wrench on start up. See manual message on left lcd. Drove for about 3km.

 

Shut down and start up in ETM with the orange wrench. No errors listed. Three starts with the orange wrench. Drove another probably 10km. Orange wrench gone on next start.

Did you run a VHR while the message was on the screen?

[openair]

The VHR system is USA only.  Or doesn't support vehicles built for the Canadian market anyway.

[openair]

Check engine light on start up at 6 am this morning. 0c. Inside garage overnight. No snow or anything on the vehicle.

 

Drove 7km to work. Check engine light still on 9:30 am. Started in ETM. No errors listed. Check engine light still on at 12 noon. Note I haven't actually used the ICE since the check engine light came on. Does anyone know if the check engine light on this vehicle is solely for the ICE or the motor as well?

[jeff_h]

Check engine light on start up at 6 am this morning. 0c. Inside garage overnight. No snow or anything on the vehicle.

 

Drove 7km to work. Check engine light still on 9:30 am. Started in ETM. No errors listed. Check engine light still on at 12 noon. Note I haven't actually used the ICE since the check engine light came on. Does anyone know if the check engine light on this vehicle is solely for the ICE or the motor as well?

 

The only time I have had my CEL come on was a year ago when the car had 10k miles, and the ICE had nothing to do with it -- in my case the CEL went out after a off/on cycle, then did it again a couple days later and disappeared again, and then a few days later came on and stayed on, and the ICE was never a factor.  In my case the error code indicated a fault in the HVB fan and they replaced it and now car has 48k miles and all is fine.  So if your CEL is on and staying on, run a VHR (though it may not be that descriptive) and take it to the dealer to see what's up.

[larryh]

The MIL comes on for many reasons.   Using ForScan I can read the DTCs from the OBD II connector.  The following shows some of the DTCs that I have observed when the MIL light was on:

 

Code: U0121 - Lost Communication With ABS Control Module
Code: U0151 - Lost Communication With Restraints Control Module
Code: U0155 - Lost Communication With Instrument Panel Cluster Control Module
Code: U016A - Lost Communication With Global Positioning System Module Range/Performance
Code: U0198 - Lost Communication With Telematic Control Module
Code: U0100 - Lost Communication With ECM/PCM A

 

These all resulted one time when I washed the car when it was about 20 F.  Apparently the moisture condensed on the cold circuits in the car causing the car to loose communications with several of the modules.  I have washed it several times since in the cold and have not had any further problems.  I have also observed the MIL when the 12 V battery was low.