Battery indicator in Hybrid Mode

[cegarbage]

Since I got my new car a couple weeks ago, I've been able to stay in plug in mode the majority of the time. I do notice when I cycle into Hybrid mode, the battery seems to become half filled (according to the dash) almost instantly...And tends to float 1/2 to 3/4. Is that normal?

[murphy]

Since I got my new car a couple weeks ago, I've been able to stay in plug in mode the majority of the time. I do notice when I cycle into Hybrid mode, the battery seems to become half filled (according to the dash) almost instantly...And tends to float 1/2 to 3/4. Is that normal?

Yes that is normal.There must be room in the battery for regen braking to store the recovered energy or regen braking would not be possible.

[rbort]

It should start out full and then drop to half gradually and hover around there with the engine on and off to maintain it.  At 1/3 the engine comes on and 3/4 it goes off on average.  If you're battery is good when you switch over from HVB to Hybrid then the Empower screen bar will also drop gradually from 4 bars to 3 to 2 and hold 2 for a bit until the hybrid battery drops down.  This is only the case if you don't use EV later during that charge cycle.

 

-=>Raja.

Edited November 7, 2014 at 03:56 PM by rbort

[Fat Fusion]

Yes that is normal.There must be room in the battery for regen braking to store the recovered energy or regen braking would not be possible.

 

Mine is not like this.

 

It should start out full and then drop to half gradually and hover around there with the engine on and off to maintain it.  At 1/3 the engine comes on and 3/4 it goes off on average.  If you're battery is good when you switch over from HVB to Hybrid then the Empower screen bar will also drop gradually from 4 bars to 3 to 2 and hold 2 for a bit until the hybrid battery drops down.  This is only the case if you don't use EV later during that charge cycle.

 

-=>Raja.

 

Mine is like this.

[stevedebi]

Since I got my new car a couple weeks ago, I've been able to stay in plug in mode the majority of the time. I do notice when I cycle into Hybrid mode, the battery seems to become half filled (according to the dash) almost instantly...And tends to float 1/2 to 3/4. Is that normal?

That doesn't happen on my C-Max (same basic system). The meter goes down gradually, including the read out of miles remaining. When I switch to Auto or EV Later, there is no sudden change in the battery meter.

[openair]

My hybrid portion of the HVB also depletes gradually but while it is gradual it does happen fairly quickly relative to the main portion of the HVB.  I think "gradually" and "almost instantly" are not definitive enough for gauging battery performance like this.

 

Yes that is normal.There must be room in the battery for regen braking to store the recovered energy or regen braking would not be possible.

 

This is not a valid reason when discussing the hybrid portion of the battery.  EV and the hybrid portion both use the same physical battery.  The distinction is software only and, as discussed elsewhere on these forums, it is possible it get enough regen to climb out of the hybrid portion back into the EV portion.  Once in the hybrid portion there is the entire EV portion that could store energy regened through breaking.

Edited November 7, 2014 at 06:05 PM by openair

[Rexracer]

That doesn't happen on my C-Max (same basic system). The meter goes down gradually, including the read out of miles remaining. When I switch to Auto or EV Later, there is no sudden change in the battery meter.

 

This isn't the situation being described (manually changing the mode of the car). What I read is that when the EV range is depleted, and the vehicle switch's to "hybrid" mode, the gauge goes to full, then drops quickly to half, and is maintained between 1/3-1/2 depending on power requirements. Once the battery is depleted, its not really completely depleted, its is just at the end of its "EV only" range, and is now in "Hybrid" mode, showing a new battery, without the "range" numbers.

 

My guess is this is what happens with the C-Max also, you just interpreted the question differently.

[cegarbage]

Above it is stated if there enough regen to climb out of the hybrid portion back into the EV portion.  I've never seen that happen. I assumed if my Hybrid only stayed at full, I might be able to climb back up. It just seems like it gets to half too quickly.

[openair]

It is possible but rarely happens under normal driving.  Requires a fairly long and or steep hill.

 

It just seems like it gets to half to quickly.

 

Define quickly.  1 or 2kms of pure EV driving? What are your break scores like? What speed are travelling at during this time? How many bars on the empower display do push while accelerating?

Edited November 7, 2014 at 06:52 PM by openair

[stevedebi]

This isn't the situation being described (manually changing the mode of the car). What I read is that when the EV range is depleted, and the vehicle switch's to "hybrid" mode, the gauge goes to full, then drops quickly to half, and is maintained between 1/3-1/2 depending on power requirements. Once the battery is depleted, its not really completely depleted, its is just at the end of its "EV only" range, and is now in "Hybrid" mode, showing a new battery, without the "range" numbers.

 

My guess is this is what happens with the C-Max also, you just interpreted the question differently.

Ah, that is explanable, here is my theory. The Energi reserves 1.6kw (or so) for hybrid operation in the "normal" hybrid mode (no EV range available). When the mileage is showing on the meter, I have found that it is actually drawing some of those miles from the "normal" portion of the HV battery. So when it automatically switches to Auto, then the hybrid battery display comes in, which shows the actual state of the 1.6KW hybrid reserved portion. I don't think the Ford system reserves the entire 1.6KW for later hybrid use.

 

You can actually see this when in EV Later mode. Once you switch to EV later, the miles to go meter in the battery continues to go down; that is the conventional 1.6 KW portion of the battery being used.

 

I was just thinking the other day that it is somewhat strange that Ford didn't just switch to the normal battery display when the operator goes to EV later; it would be a more accurate display than continuing to show the "big" meter with miles changing up and down, even though there is a set reserve percentage.

[openair]

Ah, that is explanable, here is my theory. The Energi reserves 1.6kw (or so) for hybrid operation in the "normal" hybrid mode (no EV range available). When the mileage is showing on the meter, I have found that it is actually drawing some of those miles from the "normal" portion of the HV battery. So when it automatically switches to Auto, then the hybrid battery display comes in, which shows the actual state of the 1.6KW hybrid reserved portion. I don't think the Ford system reserves the entire 1.6KW for later hybrid use.

 

You can actually see this when in EV Later mode. Once you switch to EV later, the miles to go meter in the battery continues to go down; that is the conventional 1.6 KW portion of the battery being used.

 

100% of the hybrid portion of the battery is reserved for hybrid use regardless of operation mode.  EV later is programmed to allow a ~5% window +/- of the current % when EV later is set.  Some give and take is required for efficiency (so it can operate as a hybrid while in EV later).  The EV range reported is the range under the EV portion of the HVB.  The display does not display any range related to the hybrid portion.  This is observable as the EV range drops to 1, than 0 KM(miles) before switch to the hybrid portion display.  As well as by observing the actual battery % on the touch screen.  This reports only the % of the EV portion of the battery.

Edited November 7, 2014 at 07:56 PM by openair

[stevedebi]

100% of the hybrid portion of the battery is reserved for hybrid use regardless of operation mode.  EV later is programmed to allow a ~5% window +/- of the current % when EV later is set.  Some give and take is required for efficiency (so it can operate as a hybrid while in EV later).  The EV range reported is the range under the EV portion of the HVB.  The display does not display any range related to the hybrid portion.  This is observable as the EV range drops to 1, than 0 KM(miles) before switch to the hybrid portion display.  As well as by observing the actual battery % on the touch screen.  This reports only the % of the EV portion of the battery.

Well, if the reserve is maintained for EV Later, then I don't see why that range would ever change. Why would it drop at all? If there is a percentage available that equates to 3 miles, for example, why shouldn't it basically stay at 3 miles. Maybe a little bit, as the average fuel economy changes, but not all the way down to zero. Of course, I'm speaking of EV Later, but I think it relates to how that big battery shows miles. I don't allow mine to go down intentionally, so I've not watched it go into Auto mode, or used Auto mode down until it gets to main HVB depletion.

 

Unless you can show some supporting documentation, I stand by my former statement.

 

It is possible we are speaking of different things.

[openair]

The remaining EV range changes during EV later because of the ~5% charge window.

[murphy]

If you drive the car in EV Now until the HVB is totally depleted the car switches to Auto mode, the other two modes are disabled.  In this mode the battery display changes to the display that is used in the FFH.  It has been my contention that when using EV Later mode the display should change to the Hybrid type display because the EV display is meaningless since it isn't changing unless you are coming down from the top of Pike's Peak.  Ford doesn't agree and I was ignored.

[rbort]

Agree with Ford and Steve.

 

If you switch to EV later the hybrid portion of the battery is used.  You can prove this to yourself by switching to EV later for some time and then back to Auto.  Once the main battery reaches 0%, the Empower screen will drop suddenly not gradually from 4 bars down to 2.  If you have CC on this can trigger the engine unexpectedly.  This is due to the fact that the hybrid portion of the battery was used and reused (charge/discharge) and is no longer 100% full.

 

If you don't switch to EV later then the hybrid battery is completely full (note that the engine never completely charges the hybrid battery).  In this case the charge level drops gradually from 4 bars to 3 then to 2.  When you plug in the car the car will always charge the hybrid portion of the battery first to full before continuing onwards with the rest of the battery.  It will also charge the hybrid portion right away even if value charge is selected for later.  This is due to the fact that its "bad" for the battery to be at low level charge it wants to bring it back up above 20% charge level asap.

 

You will see the total range of the car change up and down as the battery is used while the engine is warming up and not taking the load and then back up as the engine is charging the battery.  It should hover around the same mileage, but it can swing up and down its totally expected.

 

Ford displaying the total range with the big battery is a little more informative than the little battery.  You still have the big battery to switch to later.  If the range is gone, then, hmmm...how much battery range do I have left to go from EV later back to Auto to get home?  Forgot?  Now you have to switch to auto and back to EV later on the highway to check.  Not good.

 

The range is not +/- 5%.  It is minus 6% plus 2% of the set point.  In other words you can feather the gas in ev later to drop the charge level by around -6% and the engine will stop charging the battery in EV later even under level constant load where the engine is always needed when it reaches +2%.

 

And with that, boom, I'm taking my car out now to Chili's to have dinner and charge up :)

 

-=>Raja.

Edited November 7, 2014 at 11:16 PM by rbort

[stevedebi]

I have only gone to Auto due to main EV battery depletion once - yesterday. And that was after a short EV later run, and when I began the run and switched to EV Later the system showed 2 miles on the main battery. No problem there, but the range readout on the battery went down to 1 mile by the end of the drive.

 

When I got finished with my errand and restarted the car, it switched to Auto - the other options were disabled - and the "hybrid" battery started out at about 2/3 full. If Ford were reserving the full hybrid battery 1.6KW, it should have been full at that point.

[stevedebi]

...

 

The range is not +/- 5%.  It is minus 6% plus 2% of the set point.  In other words you can feather the gas in ev later to drop the charge level by around -6% and the engine will stop charging the battery in EV later even under level constant load where the engine is always needed when it reaches +2%.

 

And with that, boom, I'm taking my car out now to Chili's to have dinner and charge up :)

 

-=>Raja.

Raja,

In that case, when we "recharge" the HVB during highway driving, what we are doing is catching the upper range of +2% and adding that to the EV Later. No wonder it is always a small increase (unless downhill is involved).

[rbort]

Steve,

 

You should drive in auto all the time while driving ev. I used to switch it to ev only but don't do it any more. Auto allows the empower screen to show the engine threshold, ev now doesn't.

 

You experienced battery cooldown. When you drive and the battery is at operating temperature the voltage is up. Allowing it to cool the voltage drops some and your 1 or 2 ev miles may be gone and you find yourself in hybrid mode only when you power up later, this is normal.

 

When you drive and charge, its catching all energy charged but using it and not retaining any. If you are up 2% the car will not think twice and use it when the conditions request it. If you want to catch any excess +1 or +2%, then you must cycle ev later to hold the new higher charge level.

 

Similarly you can 'lose' charge by letting the car use some battery to assist the engine or drive downhill by recycling ev later to a newer lower percentage. This will prevent the gas engine from charging back up to the previous ev later setting and getting less mpg numbers while doing it. More choices once you become a smart informed driver.

 

-=^Raja. (sent from Chilis, my car is at 69% now)

Edited November 8, 2014 at 12:58 AM by rbort

[TX NRG]

FWIW, the Energi uses 6.5 kWh for EV range and allows a residual of 1.1 kWh for HEV operation. The FFH battery pack is slightly higher at 1.4 kWh for HEV operation.

[larryh]

The car charges the HVB to a maximum of about 7.2 kWh.  As soon as the energy in the HVB drops to around 1.5 kWh, you enter Hybrid Mode.  In Hybrid Mode, the energy in the HVB ranges from about 1.0 to 1.5 kWh.  The car will not let the energy in the HVB drop below about 1.0 kWh. 

[rbort]

I looked through all the entries in my MFM log.  At 0.5kwh I'm getting around 2 miles, sometimes its 0.3, sometimes 0.4, one time 0.5 for around 2 miles.  So in hybrid mode I can expect about 2 miles max on average, less if uphill and more if downhill.

 

TX NRG:  Sure the battery "spec." is for 6.5Kwh in EV mode but I've only been able to pull around 5.5kwh out of it.  If I dug into the hybrid section I've used 5.7kwh in a trip I think the most I ever saw was 5.9kwh including most of the hybrid battery.

 

-=>Raja.

[openair]

As soon as the energy in the HVB drops to around 1.5 kWh, you enter Hybrid Mode.  In Hybrid Mode, the energy in the HVB ranges from about 1.0 to 1.5 kWh.

 

This was my understanding as well.  That the distinction of ev and hybrid portions of the battery is a software distinction based on the current true state of charge of the battery.  If this is true than the hybrid portion of the battery cannot be depleted during ev later use as steve and rbort describe.  And I am fairly certain what larryh and i had describe is how my 2014 Fusion Energi SE operates.

 

 

TX NRG:  Sure the battery "spec." is for 6.5Kwh in EV mode but I've only been able to pull around 5.5kwh out of it.  If I dug into the hybrid section I've used 5.7kwh in a trip I think the most I ever saw was 5.9kwh including most of the hybrid battery.

 

-=>Raja.

Which lines up with the numbers larryh states and is expected.  7.2 kWH max true state of charge.  -1.0 kWH reserved for HVB health. -0.5 kWH reserved for hybrid portion. = 5.7 kWH ev.  Or 0.2kWH off what you've experienced.  A loss of 4.5%.  Well within the HVB warrantied parameters (the HVB warranty states a loss of up to 30% is acceptable before they will replace the battery).  Or 6.3kwh vs 5.9kwh if we included the potential of the hybrid portion and your experience with "most of" it =  a loss of 0.3kwh.  A 6.3% loss.  Still well within the warranty.

 

I think ppl in this thread are just expecting far too much from the ~0.5 kWH used for the hybrid operation.  The hybrid portion is slightly less than 9% of the size of the EV portion.  Or about 3km, 2 miles, for the entire hybrid portion.

Edited November 8, 2014 at 04:05 PM by openair

[rbort]

Absolutely disagree here:

 

 

 

If this is true than the hybrid portion of the battery cannot be depleted during ev later use as steve and rbort describe.  And I am fairly certain what larryh and i had describe is how my 2014 Fusion Energi SE operates.

 

You need to test it yourself as theory talk is just that to be honest.  When you switch into EV later the battery starts using the hybrid portion right away.  Logic would dictate that while the whole battery may be wired in series, the hybrid portion may be wired directly to certain cells.

 

My battery since new has been the same, about 5.5 out of the regular battery before its out.  5.7 is including some of the hybrid battery use, 5.9 is including just about all of it (feathering the gas to almost the last drop to coast home at around 20mph late at night).

 

-=>Raja.

Edited November 8, 2014 at 04:12 PM by rbort

[openair]

You need to test it yourself as theory talk is just that to be honest.  When you switch into EV later the battery starts using the hybrid portion right away.

 

I have tested it myself.  As i already described in this thread.  I see the ev range and battery % drop to 0 before the switch to the hybrid portion of the battery and a gradual but relatively quick drop in the charge of the hybrid portion equal to about 3km of ev range for the entire hybrid portion of the hvb.

Edited November 8, 2014 at 04:15 PM by openair

[rbort]

OK, maybe your Fusion works different than the Cmax or maybe you didn't switch to EV later before reaching 0% battery.  Did you try that?

 

If you drive daily and use up the entire battery, please do this for me as an example:

 

Drive the car in Auto mode for a few miles (or whatever you need to get to the highway).  Switch to EV later and drive the car for a few miles in EV later.  Then switch back to Auto mode and let the battery drain to 0%.  When it gets to 1% make sure you're in the Empower screen so you can see the main battery available power level (4 bars), and then see once you get to 0% how it drops from there.

 

I maintain that if you never switch to EV later first, the drop is gradual.  If you used EV later its a sudden drop from 4 to 2 bars.

 

Let me know and thanks.  P.S. I'm not talking about the little hybrid battery but the sudden versus not drop in Empower from 4 to 2 bars.

 

Please try it and confirm what I'm saying as correct in the Fusion or not.

 

-=>Raja.

Edited November 8, 2014 at 04:34 PM by rbort