Charging the Energi battery using the gas motor rather than the wall

[doTERRA]

Anyway to charge up the Energi battery using the gas motor?

 

If you turn on the gas motor for the first time in a trip, since it needs to stay on to warm up anyways, it will use the energy generated to charge up the battery for driving around in electric mode. This seems to put a few percent of charge into the battery very quickly.

 

Is there anyway to keep the motor on to charge the battery up, a la the Volt? It would be very nice to have more pure electric mode in situations.

[murphy]

The only way to charge the HVB other than plugging it in is to drive to the top of a mountain like Pike's Peak.  The HVB can be completely charged by regen while coming down the mountain.  However more energy will be used to get to the top than will be returned coming down.

 

It's more efficient to move the car using the engine directly than to use the engine to charge the battery and then use the battery to propel the car.  There are losses during charging and discharging.

[stevedebi]

Anyway to charge up the Energi battery using the gas motor?

 

If you turn on the gas motor for the first time in a trip, since it needs to stay on to warm up anyways, it will use the energy generated to charge up the battery for driving around in electric mode. This seems to put a few percent of charge into the battery very quickly.

 

Is there anyway to keep the motor on to charge the battery up, a la the Volt? It would be very nice to have more pure electric mode in situations.

Note that I have the C-Max Energy, not the Fusion, but I believe the electric components are the same. Also note that Raja was the first one I know of to discover the possibility of adding energy to the main EV battery with the ICE. I do not use his techniques (although they are probably similar); his comments on the possibility led me to do my own experimentation.

 

I have charged from 1% up to 33% during a recent 100 mile trip using the gas engine. I don't recommend it, because you use more fuel to recharge the battery than you save by storing up the electric in EV Later. The technique involves letting the engine get to maximum charge (on the highway the car only uses 1.6KW, constantly charging it as needed or using it as needed). But if you catch it at the top of a charge cycle, you can push the EV button three times, and it will capture a small amount of energy (typically 1%). You should also do this if you have a sudden need to slow down and the car goes to EV mode with the ^ indicator on the battery display. That can recover 3% or so, depending on how much you slow.

 

The 1.6KW maximum (Ford calls it "charge sustaining" mode) is used in Auto if the main battery has been depleted, or in EV Later. The documentation doesn't list the amount of energy used, but so far as I can tell it uses the same amount as the conventional hybrid, which made the programming a lot easier for Ford.

 

If you leave it in EV Later, it will not recover any energy into the main EV portion of the battery.

 

The Volt is a completely different animal entirely, since that gas engine has only one purpose - to generate electricity, unlike the Ford system that primarily also runs the transmission.

Edited November 5, 2014 at 11:15 PM by stevedebi

[jdbob]

Ford should add a "EV-Charge" mode. Maybe they will do that for the Mondeo Energi they are rumored to be planning. The Mondeo is essentially a Fusion for the European market. That would allow people to charge their battery back up before entering a zero-emissions central city area where they will need to be in EV Only.

[stevedebi]

Ford should add a "EV-Charge" mode. Maybe they will do that for the Mondeo Energi they are rumored to be planning. The Mondeo is essentially a Fusion for the European market. That would allow people to charge their battery back up before entering a zero-emissions central city area where they will need to be in EV Only.

At the moment I'd settle for Ford enhancing the EV Later so that, if the "charge sustaining" mode is full and the vehicle is in EV and is charging "^", then the extra energy would go to EV Later, increasing the reserve. I think the current programming just wastes the extra energy unless the driver manually switches to Auto. The car should do this without prompting.

Edited November 6, 2014 at 01:16 AM by stevedebi

[rbort]

Steve:

 

Just as an FYI the car never wastes the energy in whatever mode you're in. Its always captured, however, in EV later it will be used up as soon as the opportunity presents itself.  If EV later is set to 55% charge level, its possible to get that charge level up to 57% with the engine charging it (if the conditions are right) before the charging relaxes and the engine mpg numbers go up.  If you're going down hill and you're already at 57% its still going to rise even more, 58, 59 ,60% and beyond.  The only difference is that the car remembers the set point at 55% and if you make 60% it will use it all the way back down to 55% before it tries to start maintaining it again.  Its the same idea when you go into EV later with a full charge, the maximum allowed charge level in EV later is 95%, so the car will use up the charge from 100% down to 95% before trying to hold it at that level.

 

If you want to increase the reserve then simply cycle EV later when you are at any higher percentage than 55% in this example.  The only thing that I do is wait to cycle it when the engine is off, otherwise if the engine was running you will interrupt it and cause it to shut off as you're cycling the EV modes, and, if there is enough demand in power it would start back up again.  I figured its less intrusive to do it while the engine is off then its just computer mode switching with no mechanical effects while you cycle EV later.

 

 

 

If you leave it in EV Later, it will not recover any energy into the main EV portion of the battery.

 

Regarding this statement, there is only 1 battery its the same battery whether you're in hybrid or ev mode.  The system just uses a 1.6 kwh section of the battery while in hybrid mode (default is lower section between 22 and 14% charge level), but can simulate other sections throughout the charge level of the battery just the same, so if you choose 55% EV later then the "section" is from 57% down to 49%.  Its just one battery, EV later limits the discharge range to -6% and the engine charge range to +2% of selected percentage.  Down hills override limits the battery can keep charging in EV later higher than 57% same as during stops and regenerative braking.  If you want to save your extra reserve, cycle EV later to a higher percentage, its as simple as that.

 

And like I said before, if you do charge/keep growing the EV portion of the battery, due to the fact that when you grow it from 55% to 57%, the engine now has to charge to 59% before relaxing the charging and getting more mpg numbers whereas at 57% the HVB was already "fully" charged.

 

So, if you do this then make sure you use the EV portion and get at least 140mpge so that you can "beat" the charging losses, otherwise its not worth it.  My advice is to drive less than 40mph in all EV charged while driving to benefit from it.

 

-=>Raja.

Edited November 6, 2014 at 03:28 AM by rbort

[stevedebi]

Steve:

 

Just as an FYI the car never wastes the energy in whatever mode you're in. Its always captured, however, in EV later it will be used up as soon as the opportunity presents itself.  If EV later is set to 55% charge level, its possible to get that charge level up to 57% with the engine charging it (if the conditions are right) before the charging relaxes and the engine mpg numbers go up.  If you're going down hill and you're already at 57% its still going to rise even more, 58, 59 ,60% and beyond.  The only difference is that the car remembers the set point at 55% and if you make 60% it will use it all the way back down to 55% before it tries to start maintaining it again.  Its the same idea when you go into EV later with a full charge, the maximum allowed charge level in EV later is 95%, so the car will use up the charge from 100% down to 95% before trying to hold it at that level.

 

If you want to increase the reserve then simply cycle EV later when you are at any higher percentage than 55% in this example.  The only thing that I do is wait to cycle it when the engine is off, otherwise if the engine was running you will interrupt it and cause it to shut off as you're cycling the EV modes, and, if there is enough demand in power it would start back up again.  I figured its less intrusive to do it while the engine is off then its just computer mode switching with no mechanical effects while you cycle EV later.

 

 

 

 

Regarding this statement, there is only 1 battery its the same battery whether you're in hybrid or ev mode.  The system just uses a 1.6 kwh section of the battery while in hybrid mode (default is lower section between 22 and 14% charge level), but can simulate other sections throughout the charge level of the battery just the same, so if you choose 55% EV later then the "section" is from 57% down to 49%.  Its just one battery, EV later limits the discharge range to -6% and the engine charge range to +2% of selected percentage.  Down hills override limits the battery can keep charging in EV later higher than 57% same as during stops and regenerative braking.  If you want to save your extra reserve, cycle EV later to a higher percentage, its as simple as that.

 

And like I said before, if you do charge/keep growing the EV portion of the battery, due to the fact that when you grow it from 55% to 57%, the engine now has to charge to 59% before relaxing the charging and getting more mpg numbers whereas at 57% the HVB was already "fully" charged.

 

So, if you do this then make sure you use the EV portion and get at least 140mpge so that you can "beat" the charging losses, otherwise its not worth it.  My advice is to drive less than 40mph in all EV charged while driving to benefit from it.

 

-=>Raja.

Raja,

My post probably wasn't clear enough. That is what I meant when I said main portion of the EV battery, to indicate that part of the single battery is being charged.

 

The earlier statement is still true I think. If you are in EV Later and the 1.6KWh gets full, the battery will not be charged further - which means that the system will "waste" the extra energy because it has nowhere to store it. In the situation I mentioned (EV Mode, 1.6 "sustaining" portion full, ^ battery indicator) I suspect it will begin to apply some transmission braking and stop trying to charge what it thinks of as a full battery.

 

In this situation the operator should switch to Auto or EV to allow the battery to recover the energy. And then when the car reaches level ground and goes out to battery discharge ("v" under the battery symbol), move immediately back to EV Later.

Edited November 6, 2014 at 09:05 PM by stevedebi

[jdbob]

Here's part of the dash of the Mercedes Benz S500 PHEV:

 

 

I'm pretty sure Hybrid = Auto, E-Mode = EV Now, and E-Save = EV Later. And of course the "Charge" mode that we don't have but many other PHEV's do. It's really just a small change to EV Later mode to move the reserve amount up as you drive, maybe running the engine a little harder to get something like 80% charge in 10 minutes. Based on Ford's behavior I would guess that there is almost no chance of them implementing it on current vehicles.

[stevedebi]

 

I'm pretty sure Hybrid = Auto, E-Mode = EV Now, and E-Save = EV Later. And of course the "Charge" mode that we don't have but many other PHEV's do. It's really just a small change to EV Later mode to move the reserve amount up as you drive, maybe running the engine a little harder to get something like 80% charge in 10 minutes. Based on Ford's behavior I would guess that there is almost no chance of them implementing it on current vehicles.

Considering Ford's problems with MPG ratings, I don't see them making any changes that might impact MPG. This "charge" setting has to reduce MPG - the engine is working harder.

 

I found this description of the Charge mode:

 

Charge: Here the high-voltage battery is charged during vehicle operation with the aid of the internal combustion engine. Electric driving and boost operation are completely dispensed with. Under optimal conditions a run-down high-voltage battery can be fully charged in just about half an hour. As soon as the high-voltage battery is fully charged, the system automatically switches to E-save mode.

 

It is also a fairly small battery, 8.7 kWh.

Edited November 7, 2014 at 05:08 PM by stevedebi

[jdbob]

Considering Ford's problems with MPG ratings, I don't see them making any changes that might impact MPG. This "charge" setting has to reduce MPG - the engine is working harder.

 

Charge mode is for special situations and wouldn't come up in MPG testing. You don't see Volt's "Mountain Mode" ratings on the window sticker do you?

[stevedebi]

Charge mode is for special situations and wouldn't come up in MPG testing. You don't see Volt's "Mountain Mode" ratings on the window sticker do you?

No, but the problem Ford encountered was with "real world" MPG ratings. If folks could recharge the HVB with the engine - and thus lower their observed mileage - then there would be another headache for Ford public relations.

 

Not a question of the EPA ratings, but rather what the public gets. Ford is very sensitive about this right now, due to the C-Max debacle. Imagine, reducing the MPG rating twice!

[expresspotato]

If you really want to what does stomping on the gas while in park and in Auto or EV Later modes do?

On the hybrid while in park and stoping on the gas will start the gas engine and charge the battery.