Money saved

[Hardp]

Please tell me if I'm doing this calc correctly.

 

(THE NUMBERS BELOW ARE ALL APPROXIMATES FOR THIS Q.)

 

I recently completed an approximately 3,200 mile driving trip thru Canada. My odometer says I used approx. 1320 regen miles and averaged 45.8 mpg. I paid appox. $5.40/gallon Canadian which is about $4.86 US.

 

If I divide 1320 by 45.8 and multiply by 4.86 I come up with approx. $140.06.

 

Is that how much $$$ I saved?

[rbort]

No...3200 miles at 45.8mpg means you used about 70 gallons for your trip.  $70 x 4.86 means the trip cost you $340 in fuel.

 

What you saved would be the difference between driving this car at 45.8mpg versus driving an ICE only car at less mpg numbers.

 

Regen miles has nothing to do with savings, but are you sure that's regen miles not EV miles you listed?  Its impossible to regen 1320 miles on a 3200 mile trip.

 

-=>Raja.

[Rexracer]

 

Its impossible to regen 1320 miles on a 3200 mile trip.

 

 

 

I wouldn't go so far as saying impossible, but highly unlikely. If they were going through a lot of mountains then its possible to be regening very frequently.

But you are right, money saved is total cost of gas vs what would have been spent in the alternative vehicle.

 

for instance:

Fusion: 3200 miles at 45.8mpg means you used about 70 gallons for your trip.  70 gallons x 4.86 per gallon means the trip cost you $340 in fuel.

Lets use an Accord for an example

3200 miles at 32mpg means you used about 100 gallons for your trip.  100 gallons x $4.86 per gallon means the trip would have cost you $486 in fuel.

 

So your savings by driving the fusion vs an Accord that would have averaged 32mpg for that trip would have been $146.

The Energi doesn't shine on long trips that use the ICE, it shines around town when you are using Electric the majority of the time.

[rbort]

Rexracer:

 

I'm still going to stick with impossible, because you have to go up a mountain to come down it and regen.

 

Below is a picture of my lifetime summary of driving my Energi for 13 months.  Wait, too big to upload it says can't do it, so let me cut and paste see if that works:

 

Nope, still won't let me do it.  OK, I'm typing it:

 

Lifetime Summary

Distance:  12414.8 EV Miles

                  1599.4 Regen Miles

 

Energy Use:  62.7 MPG

 

Brake Score: 98%

 

22970.9 Mi (odometer).

 

So in almost 23 thousand miles I got about 1600 miles regen.  So short of riding the brakes all the time while stepping on the accelerator, I don't think 1300 regen miles is going to happen within 3200 miles total distance travelled.

 

-=>Raja.

 

[Hybridbear]

Remember that regen miles get reset when the PCM is updated to a new calibration such as during the current FSA to update that module.

Edited October 7, 2014 at 05:15 PM by Hybridbear

[Rexracer]

Interesting, I'm

 

6419.3 EV miles (half of what you have)

1486.9 regen miles

10,023.1 mile total

[rbort]

Regen miles come from braking, so if you spend alot of time in traffic you'll make more of them.  I'm lucky that I don't get stuck in lots of traffic plus I do travel to other states hence why my miles are so much in one year's time.

 

But even with all your regen miles, you're at 10k miles now, the OP said something different:

 

 

 

I recently completed an approximately 3,200 mile driving trip thru Canada. My odometer says I used approx. 1320 regen miles and averaged 45.8 mpg.

 

He's talking about one trip in Canada 3200 miles long, think of it like driving across the country from coast to coast 3000 miles.  You think you can brake 1/3 of the way??

 

-=>Raja.

[Rexracer]

Regen miles come from braking, so if you spend alot of time in traffic you'll make more of them.  I'm lucky that I don't get stuck in lots of traffic plus I do travel to other states hence why my miles are so much in one year's time.

 

But even with all your regen miles, you're at 10k miles now, the OP said something different:

 

 

 

 

He's talking about one trip in Canada 3200 miles long, think of it like driving across the country from coast to coast 3000 miles.  You think you can brake 1/3 of the way??

 

-=>Raja.

 

I'm not stating that I have achieved what the original poster said, just observing that in 40% of the miles accumulated I am very nearly (93.7%) the same regen miles.

 

my your statement "Can you brake 1/3 of the way?" I would say yes, its completely possible. Drive up hill for 20 miles, brake back down, drive up back down. 100% possible, really really stupid, and pointless but possible. This was my only assertion going into this, not realistically possible, just technically possible.

 

But after thinking about it, its not "braking 1/3 of the way", even if you did what I describe above, drive up a hill brake back down, etc your likely not regening as many miles of range as you are braking. e.g. coasting down hill for 20 miles, does not give you 20 miles of driving.

 

So Raja, I agree with you, I was just being humorous.

[Hardp]

I've just done another road trip.  I started out with a full plug in battery charge.  I drove a total of 477.9 miles.  My odometer says that 140.9 of those miles were EV miles.  That is 9%.  Is that reasonable/possible?  (Attached is a pic of the odometer.)

 

Also attached is a pic of my earlier road trip of 3588.7 miles.  It shows 561.3 EV miles BUT, in fact, the EV mileage rolled over at 999 so it really is 1,561.3 EV miles.  That would be 44% but that doesn't seem possible.  On this trip, I started out with a full battery charge (21 miles) and mid-way thru the trip, I recharged it once to 17 miles).

 

Can someone explain what this all means?

 

Thanks.

[stevedebi]

I've just done another road trip.  I started out with a full plug in battery charge.  I drove a total of 477.9 miles.  My odometer says that 140.9 of those miles were EV miles.  That is 9%.  Is that reasonable/possible?  (Attached is a pic of the odometer.)

 

Also attached is a pic of my earlier road trip of 3588.7 miles.  It shows 561.3 EV miles BUT, in fact, the EV mileage rolled over at 999 so it really is 1,561.3 EV miles.  That would be 44% but that doesn't seem possible.  On this trip, I started out with a full battery charge (21 miles) and mid-way thru the trip, I recharged it once to 17 miles).

 

Can someone explain what this all means?

 

Thanks.

I own the C-Max Energi, which uses the Ford system. The vehicle can go into EV mode at any speed up to 85 MPH, and if you are watching the displays, you will observe that the vehicle goes to EV whenever possible, like on a down hill slope or when you decellerate in traffic, even on the highway. Those short EV miles add up.

[Rexracer]

I own the C-Max Energi, which uses the Ford system. The vehicle can go into EV mode at any speed up to 85 MPH, and if you are watching the displays, you will observe that the vehicle goes to EV whenever possible, like on a down hill slope or when you decellerate in traffic, even on the highway. Those short EV miles add up.

 

But to add up to 40% off the total miles driven on flat ground? I just did an 820 mile journey, and yes engine switch's off/on, but not for 40% of the time.

[stevedebi]

But to add up to 40% off the total miles driven on flat ground? I just did an 820 mile journey, and yes engine switch's off/on, but not for 40% of the time.

I did a shorter trip last weekend, and my C-Max managed 40% EV in one direction (77 miles); on the trip back we stopped part way. First leg at 23 miles with 68% EV, and the last leg back for 39 miles with 49% EV.  There were hills involved, and I maximized use of Auto mode to regernate EV Later capabilities, but I did not plug in the car during the trip.

 

As you said, yours was flat ground, and it does seem surprising.

[Hybridbear]

It's not unusual to see 40+% EV miles in hybrid mode on the interstate with rolling hills and cruise control. Today I drove 200+ freeway miles but had only 13% EV because I tried to keep the ICE on most of the time based on the data Larry has gathered showing that to be more efficient. In our 27,000 miles of driving the Fusion Hybrid we typically saw 70+% EV miles in city driving and close to 40-45% on the interstate with just cruise control. Flat ground would usually see less EV miles and higher MPG than rolling hills.

[FrostFire]

I frequently drive a 20 mile stretch of relatively flat highway where I get 6-10 miles of regen.  There are lights every 1-2 miles but people still drive ~60 mph between them, sometimes you fly through a green or yellow but just as often you have to brake back down to zero.  I'm just glad I'm doing it in a PHEV.

[blars]

It's not unusual to see 40+% EV miles in hybrid mode on the interstate with rolling hills and cruise control. Today I drove 200+ freeway miles but had only 13% EV because I tried to keep the ICE on most of the time based on the data Larry has gathered showing that to be more efficient. In our 27,000 miles of driving the Fusion Hybrid we typically saw 70+% EV miles in city driving and close to 40-45% on the interstate with just cruise control. Flat ground would usually see less EV miles and higher MPG than rolling hills.

 

How is it more efficient to use gas instead of letting it drop into hybrid mode when possible?

[stevedebi]

How is it more efficient to use gas instead of letting it drop into hybrid mode when possible?

Do a search and get lots of larryh data!

 

I believe the concept is that if you use the battery, when the ICE kicks in it has to both recharge the HVB AND drive the vehicle.  Thus the engine has to work harder. If you maximize the engine use, it doesn't have to charge the HVB so frequently.

 

There is always no free lunch - that EV operation at highway speeds takes energy, which comes out of the gas milege on the ICE when it kicks back in, to recoup that energy back into the battery.

 

I'm sure Larry will chime in, and I can't speak to his numbers, but I believe that is the theory.

[blars]

That makes zero sense...so if I'm cruising 65 on ICE, and it drops into hybrid mode so that I'm not using ANY gas for a whole mile, and when it's discharged enough that the ICE has to kick back on, I will consume MORE gas recharging the spent battery than I would have using gas for that mile?  No way.  If that were the case, then why would a manufacturer not just make it ICE only when the HVB is discharged and you're over a certain speed?

[stevedebi]

That makes zero sense...so if I'm cruising 65 on ICE, and it drops into hybrid mode so that I'm not using ANY gas for a whole mile, and when it's discharged enough that the ICE has to kick back on, I will consume MORE gas recharging the spent battery than I would have using gas for that mile?  No way.  If that were the case, then why would a manufacturer not just make it ICE only when the HVB is discharged and you're over a certain speed?

Not sure if you are replying to me. Not my theory, but I agree with you.

[Hybridbear]

That makes zero sense...so if I'm cruising 65 on ICE, and it drops into hybrid mode so that I'm not using ANY gas for a whole mile, and when it's discharged enough that the ICE has to kick back on, I will consume MORE gas recharging the spent battery than I would have using gas for that mile?  No way.  If that were the case, then why would a manufacturer not just make it ICE only when the HVB is discharged and you're over a certain speed?

Read the threads with data that Larry has gathered. It has to do with the relative efficiency of the ICE at different loads and RPMs and the efficiency of the electric motors at various loads and RPMs. The Fusion Hybrid got better highway MPG for most owners when the max EV speed was limited to 62 versus the current 85 MPH setup.

[Rexracer]

Here is the thread that is being referenced.

http://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/2566-efficient-ev-mode-driving-techniques/

[larryh]

That makes zero sense...so if I'm cruising 65 on ICE, and it drops into hybrid mode so that I'm not using ANY gas for a whole mile, and when it's discharged enough that the ICE has to kick back on, I will consume MORE gas recharging the spent battery than I would have using gas for that mile?  No way.  If that were the case, then why would a manufacturer not just make it ICE only when the HVB is discharged and you're over a certain speed?

 

You will use more gas to recharge the HVB than using the gas to power the car directly at highway speeds.   The threshold when to drop into EV mode is based on power, not speed (when going on a downgrade, little power may be required even at high speeds).  You can see the threshold with the Empower screen.  The ICE is very inefficient when low power is required, so the car switches to EV mode.  The algorithm to determine when to switch between EV and hybrid mode is not very intelligent.  It doesn't know how long reduced power is required.  If it is only for a short time, then you would be better off not switching to hybrid mode.  To do it efficiently, the car would need to know your route.  But unfortunately, it doesn't plan ahead to optimize fuel economy. 

Edited October 28, 2014 at 11:18 PM by larryh

[stevedebi]

You will use more gas to recharge the HVB than using the gas to power the car directly at highway speeds.   The threshold when to drop into EV mode is based on power, not speed (when going on a downgrade, little power may be required even at high speeds).  You can see the threshold with the Empower screen.  The ICE is very inefficient when low power is required, so the car switches to EV mode.  The algorithm to determine when to switch between EV and hybrid mode is not very intelligent.  It doesn't know how long reduced power is required.  If it is only for a short time, then you would be better off not switching to hybrid mode.  To do it efficiently, the car would need to know your route.  But unfortunately, it doesn't plan ahead to optimize fuel economy. 

I can see some sense in that, based on my driving. But there is no way to force the vehicle to use the ICE, is there? It will switchto EV mode whenever it can...

[larryh]

What we really need is another version of EV Later.  EV Later insists on maintaining the HVB at the SOC it was at when EV Later mode was entered.  When driving on the freeway, we want to enter EV mode when power output required from the ICE drops and the ICE runs inefficiently, i.e. going down a hill.  However, when the power output increases back to normal for highway speeds, don’t recharge the HVB.  The HVB should only be charged when low power is required from the ICE and we want to increase the ICE operating efficiency, and not when driving on the freeway.  We should also be able to set the power thresholds for transitioning between EV and Hybrid operation. 

[Hybridbear]

What we really need is another version of EV Later.  EV Later insists on maintaining the HVB at the SOC it was at when EV Later mode was entered.  When driving on the freeway, we want to enter EV mode when power output required from the ICE drops and the ICE runs inefficiently, i.e. going down a hill.  However, when the power output increases back to normal for highway speeds, don’t recharge the HVB.  The HVB should only be charged when low power is required from the ICE and we want to increase the ICE operating efficiency, and not when driving on the freeway.  We should also be able to set the power thresholds for transitioning between EV and Hybrid operation. 

I kind of attempt to do this myself. For most hills I just keep some pressure on the gas pedal so that the ICE stays on and charges the HVB. The lowest it goes is usually 15 kW, but it mostly stays at about 18 kW and charges the HVB. If the hill is really long I'll let the car go into EV mode and then I switch it to EV Auto for the descent. This way the kWh used from the battery on the hill don't count in the EV Later portion that must be recharged. Then when I start going back up I shift to EV Later again so that the ICE will come on but without working so hard to charge the HVB.

[stevedebi]

I think we need to keep in mind that Ford has two goals. One is to use the HVB efficiently. The second is to ensure that the LiIon battery has the longevity to last for the Federally mandated 150K and 10 years. I think they would be reluctant to allow the operator to change the EV Later settings for this latter reason.

 

I look at it differently. I think that Ford sets whatever "reserve %" that is available when entering EV Later, and then keeps 1.6KWh of battery to charge and recharge like a conventional hybrid.