law@magproducts.com Posted July 10, 2014 at 01:09 PM Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 at 01:09 PM My 2014 Fusion Energi is a great - when it worked, The range has never been over 16 miles for me personally, I get almost twice the range is my simple GEM. The dealer had it in the shop for over a month and I have been told that the range was bad because it was too cold outside. I live in the midwest and now that the outdoor temps are getting over 85 degrees the vehicle cannot drive over 200 feet without the engine coming on due to battery high temp, acceleration and normal operation when it is in ev only mode. I love the way the vehicle drives when in ev mode - not with the engine running, The adaptive cruise and other features are awesome, but I purchased this vehicle for its plug in ev purpose. I have a 9 mile commute and it should have made round trips easily without burning gas. Ford cannot answer questions regarding what is good or bad, The techs do not know how to diagnose issues and service managers simply are confused on the issue. I have read the other posts regarding range and have to admit that I am a bit jealous of what other people are achieving. - Wish Ford could fix this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meyersnole Posted July 11, 2014 at 01:02 AM Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 at 01:02 AM Battery temp at 85 does not sound like normal operation. How fast are you accelerating when you start? On your left screen, have you used the coach mode to see how well you are doing on Cruising, Braking, and Acceleration? If the lines are all short and yellow, then you are driving in a manner that will deplete the battery quicker. If the lines are all blue and long and you are still only getting 16 miles range (and the AC is not on MAX), then something is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juice Posted July 11, 2014 at 04:22 AM Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 at 04:22 AM I live in south Florida, and it's right around 90 every day. I get about 20 or slightly over 20 miles on the battery during the summer (around 26-28 miles in the winter). I hate the rain as the windshield wipers decreases battery range! I do recall the ice kicking on a couple weeks when it was super hot out (about 95) and the car had been sitting outside in the sun all day prior to driving. Mine also happened a couple hundred yards from the house and it was in ev+ and I was surprised. But it's the only time happened - and it was hot as sh*t! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlb92 Posted July 11, 2014 at 01:56 PM Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 at 01:56 PM Thats funny as my ICE has only kicked on when it was 32 degrees outside and I live in FL as well. My range decreases in the winter and I only get maximum range when it is hot outside but I park in the shade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnergiCCAATS Posted July 11, 2014 at 01:57 PM Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 at 01:57 PM Our 2014 is consistently returning 30+ mile range on dashboard and MFM, and usually my wife adds another 8-10 miles in regen during her commute and gets home with 12-15 miles EV range left (her commute is 21-25 miles depending on which direction she goes/stops she may have to make). This is in central Alabama with consistent 90+ temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rexracer Posted July 14, 2014 at 11:27 PM Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 at 11:27 PM My 2014 Fusion Energi is a great - when it worked, The range has never been over 16 miles for me personally, I get almost twice the range is my simple GEM. The dealer had it in the shop for over a month and I have been told that the range was bad because it was too cold outside. I live in the midwest and now that the outdoor temps are getting over 85 degrees the vehicle cannot drive over 200 feet without the engine coming on due to battery high temp, acceleration and normal operation when it is in ev only mode. I love the way the vehicle drives when in ev mode - not with the engine running, The adaptive cruise and other features are awesome, but I purchased this vehicle for its plug in ev purpose. I have a 9 mile commute and it should have made round trips easily without burning gas. Ford cannot answer questions regarding what is good or bad, The techs do not know how to diagnose issues and service managers simply are confused on the issue. I have read the other posts regarding range and have to admit that I am a bit jealous of what other people are achieving. - Wish Ford could fix this. With the reduced ratings from 21 to 18 ev, your 16 miles when its cold is about right. How many miles are on the car? It took 1-2k miles before I started seeing the 20-25 miles of EV driving. Whats your commute like? Highway at 70-75 mph? Are you running the AC? Stop and go with speeds going up to 40-50+mph consistently? Lithium batteries like to be 120 deg or so, so 85 deg outside is not bad (its been 85-95 here and never had the ICE turn on due to heat). So if your ICE is turning on due to heat after a couple hundred yards, that is a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdbob Posted July 22, 2014 at 08:31 PM Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 at 08:31 PM (edited) Lithium batteries like to be 120 deg or so Where do you get that from? The car will actually reduce battery usage if they reach 113F (45C) until they cool down. http://articles.sae.org/11705/ Edited July 22, 2014 at 11:17 PM by jdbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rexracer Posted July 30, 2014 at 11:12 PM Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 at 11:12 PM I should have been more general and said "Lithium's like to be warmer then cooler". This is based on testing from RC racing applications. Batteries were pre-warmed to ~120 before a race to get maximum efficiency out of them (so by the time the race started the temperature would be lower. This also caused some safety issues by people overheating batteries before or during a race (due to large drains on them). It doesn't surprise me that starting at 113 they start the cooling process's, to help prevent the ramp up over 180 deg. The point still holds that Lithium's are more efficient at higher temperatures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdbob Posted July 31, 2014 at 01:00 AM Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 at 01:00 AM RC racing and a traction battery in a car are two different animals. You are no doubt reducing the life of your RC batteries by running them hot, but then again, they don't cost several thousand dollars to replace. They also don't charge the battery in the car to 100%, to make it last longer. They don't start the cooling process at 113 degrees in the car, that's when they start reducing current drain. The batteries are cooled by cabin air, that's why people have problems if they think they are saving electricity by driving around Arizona summers with the A/C off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnergiCCAATS Posted July 31, 2014 at 03:11 PM Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 at 03:11 PM They don't start the cooling process at 113 degrees in the car, that's when they start reducing current drain. The batteries are cooled by cabin air, that's why people have problems if they think they are saving electricity by driving around Arizona summers with the A/C off. I'm curious. I know the HVB battery is cooled by cabin air, but I have also noticed there is a reservoir with engine coolant in it on top of the traction motor assembly. What is that there for? To cool the traction motor windings? Also, I know that the Volt's batteries are "liquid cooled" which they claim will increase life. Wonder why Ford doesn't liquid cool the HVB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russael Posted July 31, 2014 at 03:18 PM Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 at 03:18 PM That little micro reservoir is for cooling the inverter/motor controller. I have no idea where the radiator for that closed system is though, so I don't know where it's dumping that heat. The Focus Electric has liquid cooling and heating for the battery, but I presume Ford did not install a system like that since the Fusion/CMAX has an ICE backup (kept the cost down). The Focus has to rely totally on that battery. The Volt battery is also double the size of the one in the Fusion and in a totally different configuration that doesn't seem good for air cooling, so I guess they made the decision to climate control that pack. Honestly, I would've liked to see a second fan for the battery pack... just 1 doesn't seem to be enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnergiCCAATS Posted July 31, 2014 at 03:54 PM Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 at 03:54 PM That little micro reservoir is for cooling the inverter/motor controller. I have no idea where the radiator for that closed system is though, so I don't know where it's dumping that heat. The Focus Electric has liquid cooling and heating for the battery, but I presume Ford did not install a system like that since the Fusion/CMAX has an ICE backup (kept the cost down). The Focus has to rely totally on that battery. The Volt battery is also double the size of the one in the Fusion and in a totally different configuration that doesn't seem good for air cooling, so I guess they made the decision to climate control that pack. Honestly, I would've liked to see a second fan for the battery pack... just 1 doesn't seem to be enough. Thanks for the insight. I don't drive our Energi very much (sad face), but I know that my wife drives mostly all EV and we have had (up until this week) temps in the mid-high 90s and she has never noticed the ICE coming on due to excessive battery heat. I also know that she drives alot without A/C to maximize her range, but I am assuming she turns A/C on periodically. One plus for her is we park in garage at home and she parks in a parking deck at work, so rarely is she starting out in a car with 140+ indoor temps due to sitting out in the direct sunlight for hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdbob Posted July 31, 2014 at 08:30 PM Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 at 08:30 PM There is a radiator assembly in front of the normal engine radiator that has two sections. The top section is for the inverter/motor controller cooling and the bottom section is for the transmission fluid cooling. The assembly looks to be about 1/3 the height of the engine radiator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaggy314 Posted August 4, 2014 at 07:13 PM Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 at 07:13 PM I believe the Focus is liquid cooled since it has the 6.6 kWh charger and we (Energis) have a 3.3 so can be air cooled. I'm sure that is due to cost. I would assume we also didn't get a 6.6 as our battery is 'so small' the savings of time/cost isn't worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rexracer Posted August 4, 2014 at 08:01 PM Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 at 08:01 PM RC racing and a traction battery in a car are two different animals. You are no doubt reducing the life of your RC batteries by running them hot, but then again, they don't cost several thousand dollars to replace. They also don't charge the battery in the car to 100%, to make it last longer. They don't start the cooling process at 113 degrees in the car, that's when they start reducing current drain. The batteries are cooled by cabin air, that's why people have problems if they think they are saving electricity by driving around Arizona summers with the A/C off. Your missing my point. The simple fact is a Lithium battery will be able to have more useful life in warmer weather then in cooler weather. Thats why we all see a drop in range during the winter (sub 50 deg) then when its warmer. You don't see the range drop as the battery gets hotter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdbob Posted August 4, 2014 at 08:10 PM Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 at 08:10 PM Your missing my point. The simple fact is a Lithium battery will be able to have more useful life in warmer weather then in cooler weather. Thats why we all see a drop in range during the winter (sub 50 deg) then when its warmer. You don't see the range drop as the battery gets hotter. I think there is a confusion regarding what "life" means. I mean how many years will the battery last, it sounds like you mean how many miles you will get per charge. In any case the major cause of having less range per charge during winter is that the electric heater takes so much power. The electric A/C normally uses quite a bit less. And of course cold air is more dense than hot air so drag is higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blars Posted August 4, 2014 at 09:58 PM Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 at 09:58 PM I think there is a confusion regarding what "life" means. I mean how many years will the battery last, it sounds like you mean how many miles you will get per charge. In any case the major cause of having less range per charge during winter is that the electric heater takes so much power. The electric A/C normally uses quite a bit less. And of course cold air is more dense than hot air so drag is higher. While the heater does use quick a bit of energy, mileage is still less regardless of the heater in the winter. I bought mine in February, and tried my best to go without heat on my 10 mile trip to and from work. Even on days not using the heat in sub-freezing temperatures, I got significantly less range than I have been getting in spring and summer (~5 miles less). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted August 4, 2014 at 10:08 PM Report Share Posted August 4, 2014 at 10:08 PM (edited) The capacity of the HVB degrades at a much greater rate with increasing temperature, and also, to a lesser extent, with increasing SOC and greater depth of charge/discharge during each charge/discharge cycle. The warmer the temperature and the greater the SOC, the faster the rate undesirable chemical reactions occur that degrade the HVB. People who live in the South might experience battery degradation at a rate of 1.6 times the rest of the nation. People who live in the North might see a degradation at a rate of 0.7 times the rest of the nation. The difference is due to the average temperature differences throughout the nation. To preserve the life of the battery for as long as possible, you want to keep it at a low temperature and to maintain a low average SOC, maybe between 20% to 30%. If you are a fanatic, you would only charge the HVB right before you leave and only charge it with sufficient energy to get you to your destination. If you are going to let the car sit for a while, it would be better not to leave the HVB fully charged. Edited August 4, 2014 at 11:11 PM by larryh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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