Tax credit expiration

[comike]

Has the federal EV tax credit expired? I checked with my accountant and he said he thought the federal EV tax credit had expired.  Has it expired, or should I ask him to dig a little deeper?

 

I guess I should also ask whether anyone knows of any NJ state programs that would apply if I was to purchase a PHEV.

 

Thanks,

Mike

[murphy]

Has the federal EV tax credit expired? I checked with my accountant and he said he thought the federal EV tax credit had expired.  Has it expired, or should I ask him to dig a little deeper?

 

Your accountant is operating on what he thinks without checking the facts?

 

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/30D.-New-Qualified-Plug-in-Electric-Drive-Motor-Vehicles-%E2%80%93-Ford-Motor-Company

Edited March 11, 2014 at 01:14 AM by murphy

[Russael]

The vehicle tax credit is still on in full force, but the charging station credit has expired (if you chose to install a 240V charging station at your place of residence.)

 

Alternative Fuel Infrastructure Tax Credit

This incentive expires December 31, 2013, but will remain posted until the federal tax filing deadline.

Fueling equipment for natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas (propane), electricity, E85, or diesel fuel blends containing a minimum of 20% biodiesel installed between January 1, 2006, and December 31, 2013, is eligible for a tax credit of 30% of the cost, not to exceed $30,000. Permitting and inspection fees are not included in covered expenses. Fueling station owners who install qualified equipment at multiple sites are allowed to use the credit towards each location. Consumers who purchased qualified residential fueling equipment prior to December 31, 2013, may receive a tax credit of up to $1,000. Unused credits that qualify as general business tax credits, as defined by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), may be carried backward one year and carried forward 20 years. For more information about claiming the credit, see IRS Form 8911, which is available on the IRS Forms and Publications website. (Reference Public Law 112-240, 26 U.S. Code 30C and 38, and IRS Notice 2007-43 (PDF))

Point of Contact
U.S. Internal Revenue Service
Phone: (800) 829-1040
http://www.irs.gov/

[jeff_h]

Like Russael noted above, It's the EVSE credit that is claimed on the Form 8911 that expired at the end of 2013.  This is where you get credit for 30% of the costs for purchase and installation of your home charger.

 

The credit for *purchase of the PHEV* that is claimed on the Form 8936 would apply to the Ford Fusion Energi until Ford sells 200k of these qualifying units (along with Focus Electric and Cmax Energi), if I understand it correctly since it appears to be categorized by manufacturer rather than model.  The IRS reference for that is linked below (so be sure to verify this for yourself), and note that the latest update date at the time of this posting is Feb 14, 2014 -- so if the credit for PHEV purchase was expired then it sure would be strange for the IRS to update their page 6 weeks later and not make any mention of the expiration.

 

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Plug-In-Electric-Vehicle-Credit-(IRC-30-and-IRC-30D)

 

Note that there is also a link at the bottom of the above linked page which has the latest tally of vehicles sold by manufacturer, and as of this posting Ford was only up to 24k vehicles so they have a long way to go.

Edited March 11, 2014 at 12:09 AM by jeff_h

[comike]

Your accountant is operating on what he thinks without checking the facts?

 

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/30D.-New-Qualified-Plug-in-Electric-Drive-Motor-Vehicles-%E2%80%93-Ford-Motor-Company

We both reviewed that page, but neither of us clicked the link to the manufacturer data at the bottom of the page.  Thanks for the help!

[ClaveMan]

So if I walk into my Ford dealer to buy a 2017 Ford Fusion Energi, and we negotiate a price, has the salesman already included this $4,007?

(or is this something I apply for through a rebate later?)

 

Vehicle Description: Ford Fusion Energi

Model Year: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017

Credit Amount: $4,007

 

 

30D. New Qualified Plug-in Electric Drive Motor Vehicles – Ford Motor Company
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/30d-new-qualified-plug-in-electric-drive-motor-vehicles-ford-motor-company

Edited October 30, 2016 at 08:56 PM by ClaveMan

[murphy]

If you lease, it should be included in the lease calculations because the owner of the car (the leasing company) gets the tax credit.

 

If you buy, it is a tax credit (not a rebate) against your 2016 tax return which you file in 2017.  Your federal tax bill must be at least $4007 to get it all. 

[bdginmo]

So if I walk into my Ford dealer to buy a 2017 Ford Fusion Energi, and we negotiate a price, has the salesman already included this $4,007?

(or is this something I apply for through a rebate later?)

 

 

No. If you're buying (not leasing) negotiate on price as if the tax credit didn't even exist. You will then claim the $4007 credit on the tax return for the year in which you bought the vehicle. If you work full time in a decent paying job then it's very likely you qualify for the full credit. If you didn't have an income then you wouldn't have a tax liability and would not qualify for any part of the tax credit. That's why you negotiate with the dealer without regard to the tax credit...they aren't in the business of determining who qualifies. The confusing part is that the build & price tool on the Ford website will show the $4007 as an incentive and include it in the net price.

Edited October 31, 2016 at 03:03 AM by bdginmo

[ClaveMan]

Clear as mud.   You replies make sense.  Thanks

 

So the highlighted price on the "build & price" is your choice of a "monthly lease" price or a "Red Carpet Lease" price.  Either way its a lease.

 

The Fall 2016 "Program #50378":

 

"For Red Carpet Lease incentives [cash back], take new retail delivery from dealer stock by XX/XX/XX. See dealer for complete details.

Amount: $6,507, Offer Valid: Oct 4, 2016-Jan 3, 2017"

 

Build and price "S3 credit" of $6,507 is not explained in any way, shape or form.

Assuming it includes the $4,007 IRS credit that's still $1,400 in "mystery" incentive.

Truecar.com shows 14-16 incentives to muddle through.  Sigh..

 

S3 "Offers shown may not be available to all customers. Incentives lists are examples of offers available at the time of posting and are subject to change and expiration. Not all incentives can be redeemed together. To take advantage of rebates, incentives and/or financing offers you must take new retail delivery from dealer stock by the expiration date noted. Not all buyers will qualify for Ford Credit financing or other offers. Restrictions apply. See your local dealer for complete details."
 

 

[ClaveMan]

Here's a new thought..

 

Scenario..

Can Trump kill the Ford Fusion Energi $4,007 credit?

Or is it scheduled to be killed on its own?

[murphy]

The tax credit for an electric vehicle begins to expire when the manufacturer sells 200,000 cars in the USA.  It's a staged reduction but I can't remember the details.

[jeff_h]

The tax credit for an electric vehicle begins to expire when the manufacturer sells 200,000 cars in the USA.  It's a staged reduction but I can't remember the details.

 

I don't think that credit has any chance of early termination (only my guess), unless it gets replaced by something different, but IMHO there are bigger fish to fry than this credit.

 

Qualified Plug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Credit (IRC 30D) Phase Out

The qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle credit phases out for a manufacturer’s vehicles over the one-year period beginning with the second calendar quarter after the calendar quarter in which at least 200,000 qualifying vehicles manufactured by that manufacturer have been sold for use in the United States (determined on a cumulative basis for sales after December 31, 2009) (“phase-out period”). Qualifying vehicles manufactured by that manufacturer are eligible for 50 percent of the credit if acquired in the first two quarters of the phase-out period and 25 percent of the credit if acquired in the third or fourth quarter of the phase-out period.  Vehicles manufactured by that manufacturer are not eligible for a credit if acquired after the phase-out period.

 

Full notice here: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in-electric-vehicle-credit-irc-30-and-irc-30d?_ga=1.244767493.1430596054.1478830099

 

If you want to see a rough figure on how close a manufacturer is to hitting the 200k, add up their models on the scorecard page, link is below.

 

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

[ClaveMan]

Informative site!

 

It appears there is a drop-off of EV car sales at the start of each calendar quarter (and a sales peak at the end of each quarter almost like clock-work.  What does that mean?  Interesting.

 

[murphy]

It's the manufacturer trying to maximize sales at the end of each quarter to make Wall Street happy.

 

Tesla schedules overseas shipments at the beginning of a quarter to maximize the chance that they will be credited sales by the end of the quarter.

Edited November 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM by murphy

[ClaveMan]

murphy the MBA.   So people should not buy in October.  (No negotiating power).  OF course only finding 4 Energi's withing 250 miles of me doesn't help my negotiating position either...

[murphy]

murphy the MBA.   So people should not buy in October.  (No negotiating power).  OF course only finding 4 Energi's withing 250 miles of me doesn't help my negotiating position either...

My dealer's web site says that he has 21 in stock.

 

http://www.fordofjenkintown.com/new-inventory/index.htm?compositeType=new&year=2017&make=Ford&model=Fusion+Energi&start=0&sort=&facetbrowse=true&quick=true&searchLinkText=SEARCH&showInvTotals=false&showRadius=false&showReset=false&showSubmit=true&facetbrowseGridUnit=BLANK&showSelections=true&dependencies=model%3Amake%2Ccity%3Aprovince%2Ccity%3Astate&suppressAllConditions=true&newListingAlias=%2Fnew-inventory%2Findex.htm&usedListingAlias=%2Fused-inventory%2Findex.htm&certifiedListingAlias=%2Fcertified-inventory%2Findex.htm

[JATR4]

murphy the MBA.   So people should not buy in October.  (No negotiating power).  OF course only finding 4 Energi's withing 250 miles of me doesn't help my negotiating position either...

There are 10 model year 2017s within 250 miles of St Louis on cars.com.

 

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?zc=63101&rd=250&stkTypId=28880&yrId=30031936&mdId=53027&mkId=20015&sf1Nm=price&sf1Dir=DESC&sf2Nm=location&sf2Dir=ASC&page=1&perPage=50&sortFeatures=buryUsedLowPrice&sortFeatures=buryNewLowPrice&sortFeatures=buryLowPriceOlderThanSix&sortFeatures=buryNoPrice&sortFeatures=buryUsedLowMileage&searchSource=GN_REFINEMENT

[ClaveMan]

My dealer's web site says that he has 21 in stock.

 

 

The John Kennedy family in Philadelphia is doing pretty well. Wow!

I am casually dating a salesman 250 miles away over a platinum in a color and interior I don't want because his price is lower than the other TWO that are ONLY 200 miles away.

 

Sigh.

$200-400 for a one way ticket to pickup the car.. I wonder how much to drop a car in my driveway.

 

Lou Fusz Ford in St. Louis dropped off my brother in laws new F150 in his driveway last year (12 miles). The funny part is the truck had a huge dent in the tailgate (classic!).

 

[update.. They tried to get me to pay destination $875 after it was clearly deducted on internet offer. Not enough incentives, Wrong color, and I specifically said I would only talk to the Internet Sales Person. I got the first jughead commission salesman who trolled the inbox before the internet guy got in this morning. He didn't even work at the dealership with the car. Big thanks to mailinator.com so I could stay anonymous from these clowns. Sigh.]

Edited November 11, 2016 at 07:50 PM by ClaveMan

[bdginmo]

Let us know when you take delivery of it. Also, search the forum for information regarding the conditions that are believe to degrade the capacity of the HVB. Heat and high SoC are believed to be significant contributing factors so make sure you take it easy on the charging in the summer. Ameren rates are $0.1225/kwh in the summer and $0.0580/kwh (over 750 kwh) the other times so it's not as attractive to charge in the summer anyway. I can usually get 50 mpg in hybrid mode (in the warm season) on my commute from the western suburbs to downtown STL so this car is going to be efficient no matter what as long as you don't pretend like it's a Corvette or something.

Edited November 11, 2016 at 09:17 PM by bdginmo

[MarkK]

My dealer in NJ listed 8-10 Energi's, but they said they are all on order (or fake, just put on the website to get people in). When I went there, one had just come in, for an employee, and I drove it around the lot and on the street nearby before he did. (I liked it.) At first, they didn't even think they had that one Energi in...

 

I did not want anything he had 'on order' or could get, and I don't need a new car for 2+ months when my old lease comes due on my Infiniti. So here's what we did, I told him exactly what I wanted, he told me it would take somewhere between 7 and 10 weeks to come in, which is fine with me, and he wrote into my 'contract' that he needs to lease it to me with the lease price we agreed on, which includes the large Ford incentives. Otherwise I can walk (which I don't want to). He expects the incentive to stay the same in April, May time frame (at least one of those months).

 

About leases and purchases: I got the Ford incentive price whether buying or leasing (on the Ford website), and it had to include the $4k tax credit - it was more than $8k off MSRP. But I could not use the tax credit, I already have mega tax credits  which I cannot use due to my tax situation. I'll probably lease anyway, but if the credit is tied to the buyer (me) then I cannot buy. If so, Ford should make that clear on the website, but maybe not many people fall into the Alternate Minimum Tax situation I do. I dunno.

[Deezul]

The credit goes to the original purchaser of the vehicle. If you lease, you're not going to get the credit, Ford is. But dealers have been reducing the cost of the lease by the $4007 credit. You're getting it indirectly, which is probably better for your tax situation anyway.

[ClaveMan]

You're getting it indirectly, which is probably better for your tax situation anyway.

Nothing personal. I am talking to someone considering a lease on an Energi through Ford motor credit (not you Deezel).

 

Terrible advice for most people. Unless you don't have $4,007 in taxable income, or are driving for business use or someone else paying your lease payment perhaps). Wreck, trade in before end of lease, or in any way not reach the full term of your lease and YOU LOSE some or all of the tax credit built into that deliciously low lease payment. The only exceptional case would be to have insurance that buys you a new replacement car if you total yours in the first year. Liberty Mutual/SafeCo does this.

 

This Ford lease deal is what the security industry calls a "honey trap". Luring in unsuspecting bees. If you don't have $4,007 in taxable income or you can't swing or qualify for a Ford Motor Credit 72 month interest free payment I would highly recommend looking at a used car. If this is your case make sure to get "gap insurance".

Edited March 6, 2017 at 04:49 PM by ClaveMan

[MarkK]

I cannot use the Tax Credit because I cannot use any credits, because all of my income disqualifies for any Tax Credit due to AMT (I have a lot of unearned income). I am currently holding a very large Tax Credit (>$200k) year after year until 20 years pass when you are allowed to take the original credit even if you don't qualify due to how your income is earned. I have about 8-9 years left. These were R&D tax credits which passed through to me from my Sub-S business.

 

Are your sure the lease company doesn't get the full Credit upon their purchase? If not, then what is the difference to the case of me buying it if I were allowed to use the credit on my tax return, and then wrecking the car during the first year? Would I lose the credit then? Doesn't quite make sense to me...the car is purchased and eligible for a credit in either case. I am no different than the leasing company.

 

Another thing: Ford gave me a price of $8k less than MSRP independent of whether I lease or buy -- it is on their website, and the dealer will honor it when my car comes in or I can walk (they wrote this down and signed it). So if this is the price, aren't they -- Ford --  taking the credit? Or is the $8k in discounts independent of the tax credits?

[ClaveMan]

I cannot use the Tax Credit because I cannot use any credits, because all of my income disqualifies for any Tax Credit due to AMT (I have a lot of unearned income). I am currently holding a very large Tax Credit (>$200k) year after year until 20 years pass when you are allowed to take the original credit even if you don't qualify due to how your income is earned. I have about 8-9 years left. These were R&D tax credits which passed through to me from my Sub-S business.

 

Are your sure the lease company doesn't get the full Credit upon their purchase? If not, then what is the difference to the case of me buying it if I were allowed to use the credit on my tax return, and then wrecking the car during the first year? Would I lose the credit then? Doesn't quite make sense to me...the car is purchased and eligible for a credit in either case. I am no different than the leasing company.

 

Another thing: Ford gave me a price of $8k less than MSRP independent of whether I lease or buy -- it is on their website, and the dealer will honor it when my car comes in or I can walk (they wrote this down and signed it). So if this is the price, aren't they -- Ford -- taking the credit? Or is the $8k in discounts independent of the tax credits?

Wow! AMT Makes you a special case. An accountant should be consulted if you aren't leasing. The dealer gets the 4,007 credit (which is built into your lease making it one heck of a low monthly price). I say get what you want and lease. Just get Gap insurance (covers you if you are "upside down" (owe more than the car is worth).

[MarkK]

Thanks Claveman. I will talk to my insurance co about this.