Cost of charging?

[kacalapy]

I am looking to get a new car and the energi interests me but I worry about my ekectric bill. What do some current owners see the cost if charging a car being? Does anyone know the price of a charge? I don't want to regret my first EV car

 

In looking to test the waters with a 24 month lease. With discounts the energi is cheaper than the hybrid. I'm just worried about fuel cost - gas and ekectric!

[wxdude]

A full charge usually takes a hair over 7 KWH, if my memory serves me correctly, using my kill a watt meter.  Paying about 9 cents per KWH I spend about $.65 per charge.  Compared to gas I would spend about $1.6 to $1.7 this time of year for the same distance, so I save about a buck per charge.

 

To me its not really about money saved, because honestly you don't save much getting an energi over a hybrid for long commutes, which is what I have.  It is about the techy aspect, managing the batttery, utilizing the proper drive mode for the conditions and so forth.  Don't get me wrong, I do love the electric side of the car, and I love it when I have to make a quick trip into town.

 

What it comes down to is what you would use it for and what you want.  If you are looking at the bottom line, you will probably have a hard time justifying this unless you are a single car household living within 5-8 miles of anything you need.  If you are like me, and many others, you will really enjoy playing with all they systems of the car and figuring out how to squeeze every watt from the battery in the most efficient manner.

 

Cheers to both!

 

On a side note, my wife has started to drive my Energi some now.  The other day she asked how far I get in electric mode and I told her.  She looked at me kinda funny and said I get way less than that, 3-4 miles less.  I then started going into what I do...and she gave me that look.  The look of "what in the world are you saying..."  I stopped what I was saying and told her to keep doing what she is doing.  :p

Edited February 21, 2014 at 05:53 PM by wxdude

[jeff_h]

Welcome - as you browse topics like this on the forum, you'll see that electricity rates vary greatly based on where you live - more than I thought they would.

 

My electricity is about 11¢ per kWh, so for me if I charge once per day with 7 kWh each time, that's $0.11 x 7 x 30 = $23.10 per month.

 

Others have cheaper rates around 5-6¢ per kWh since they have timed charging and charge between 1-5am or thereabout, but my rate is the same no matter when I charge.

 

Then you have some users here from CA, and with a gradual rate based on usage I think they can have much higher rates, like 20, 30, 48, 62¢ per kWh, in which case it may be cheaper for them to use gas.

 

So the first thing to check is what your rate is.

 

A while back I had a thought of a "rule of 10" where a person could take their electricity rate and multiply that by 10 and get a rough estimate of where it would be a money saver over spending that money on gas.  For example, with my 11¢ rate it's a better deal to use electricity unless the price of gas is $1.10 or cheaper, and another example those with a high rate of 30¢ per kWh would be losing money if the price of gas was below $3.00.  So I sent that to Murphy a few months back, he came back with some other calculations and it then looked more like a "rule of 12" as to which way would be more economical.  Of course there are probably other variables at play (driving style and distance, how much you would charge, do you have free charging at work, etc) so this would be just a rough ballpark guideline, and others can chime in with other thoughts as to this type of rule of thumb.

[kacalapy]

I have a 35 mile commute to work from my house i do 5 times a week. and i do some light weekend driving. I plan to charge at my work garage for free daily but that isnt such a big save seeing it gets me about half a gallon equivalent only. im faced with a 403$/ month lease on the Energi and a 445$/mnth for the hybrid titanium models. I wanted to justify my logic that with these prices the Energi is a no brainer winner.

[murphy]

What percentage of the 35 miles is highway driving versus city driving?

Keep in mind that the Energi with a depleted High Voltage Battery drives very much like a hybrid.

You can force the car into hybrid mode (EVLater) which saves the battery.

Drive the highway high speed miles in hybrid mode and the city and traffic jam miles in EVNow mode.

[jeff_h]

What percentage of the 35 miles is highway driving versus city driving?

Keep in mind that the Energi with a depleted High Voltage Battery drives very much like a hybrid.

You can force the car into hybrid mode (EVLater) which saves the battery.

Drive the highway high speed miles in hybrid mode and the city and traffic jam miles in EVNow mode.

 

This is what I normally do, as my commute is 58-60 miles each way (depending on whether I meet carpooler at commuter lot).... I use EV-now to go the 3 miles to I-95, then EV-later (for hybrid mode) going up I-95, then depending on how many miles left on the HVB determines where on the beltway I go back to Auto and make it the rest of the way to work.  It works well for me, as the afternoon commute yesterday was best ever, 58.8 miles and 90.1 MPG.  A couple days prior to that was 89 MPG each way, which I think is great for that much distance.  I also charge at a free charging station down the road from my office, so have nearly a full HVB for the afternoon trip.  A couple weeks prior to that I had trip into DC which used up the HVB so the afternoon trip was purely hybrid mode, and got 52.3 which I also thought was very good.

[kacalapy]

80% is highway. since charging daily at work, i think it best/ most affordable option is to deplete the battery daily to get a full day charge at work.

 

Also, at what price of electricity does it get cheaper or more expensive than using the Gas motor?

 

For example if gas is 3.50 at what price of electricity does and doesn’t make sense to charge?

 

 

please explain the math details so I can grasp the concept

 

[kacalapy]

I called the elec co. and found i am paying a flat rate of $.15 per KilawattHour. no discount for night usage.

Edited February 21, 2014 at 06:38 PM by kacalapy

[jeff_h]

I called the elec co. and found i am paying a flat rate of $.15 per KilawattHour. no discount for night usage.

 

OK then using my ballpark "rule of 12" noted above (and others will probably note a more accurate rule of thumb, wouldn't be surprised if larry already has a graph on it), you would save money using electricity unless your gas was under $1.80 (15¢ x 12 = 180¢, or $1.80) -- HOWEVER, if you installed a 240V charger at home that's more money up front that would cut into that equation and make the break-even point farther down the road.

 

If you have the capability to charge at work and for free, I would definitely go that route.

 

However make sure you search this forum for 'trunk' as the trunk is smaller than in the hybrid, which may sway you the other way depending on your needs.

[murphy]

I called the elec co. and found i am paying a flat rate of $10.48 per KilawattHour. no discount for night usage.

I hope that is $0.1048 per kilowatt hour.  $10.48 per kWh would be unbelievebally high.  If you used 500 kWh per month your bill would be $5240.00.

 

1 gallon of gasoline is approximately equal to 33.7 kWh.  It varies depending on whether it is winter or summer blend.

33.7 kWh at $0.1048 would be $3.53.  If gasoline costs more than $3.53 per gallon, electricity would be cheaper.  But if you can charge for free electric operation is considerably cheaper.

 

 

A caution:  Just because there is a socket available at your work garage does not mean that you are allowed to use it to charge your car.  It may be there for the garage maintenance crew.  You should get permission to use it.

[kacalapy]

I am going to look over both cars today, the hybrid looks great, but the trunk was alerted to me by sales man over the phone. I’m making sure its enough space for me.

 

My previous post was updated to state my elec cost is 0.15 (.1048 for service and another .0368 for delivery)

 

Thanks all for the great help, Ild love to see a graph as im a technical engineer

 

[murphy]

When you look at the trunk make sure they demonstrate that both rear seat backs can be folded down and there is a small area to pass through from the trunk to the interior of the car.  I have brought several 8 foot 2x4 s home from Lowe's using that pass through.

[Gigi]

1 gallon of gasoline is approximately equal to 33.7 kWh. .

This is a number used to figure MPGe - miles per gallon equivalent, which refers to the amount of energy in a gallon of gas and is not necessarily related to your cost of driving on electricity versus gasoline, which can vary greatly depending on what you pay per kWh for electricity and the price of gas on any given day.

 

It takes about 7kWh of electricity from your wall to charge the Energi 5.6kWh, enough to go 21 miles, assuming 80% charging efficiency.  At your cost of electricity, $0.15 per kWh, it would cost you $1.05 to drive the Energi 21 miles on electricity.  Driving a Fusion Hybrid the same distance at the rated 47 mpg would take 45% of a gallon of gas.  For me, today, in my neighborhood, that is $3.299 per gallon.  21 miles in a Fusion hybrid at that cost for gasoline would be $1.47.  You would save $0.42 driving an Energi over driving a Fusion Hybrid for those 21 miles.  Your cost and savings will vary depending on the cost of gasoline.

 

If you can charge at work for free, that is the same as cutting your cost for electricity for your commute in half.  For your 70 mile round trip commute, in an Energi, you would spend $1.05 on electricity and $2.15 for gas assuming you were paying $3.299 at the pump and assuming the Energi's rating of 43 mpg.  If you drove a Fusion Hybrid that same distance, you would be spending $4.91.  So your cost would be $3.20 in the Energi versus $4.91 in the Fusion Hybrid, saving you $1.71 on those days that you commute and you charge for free at work.

 

Whether it is worth it for you to drive an Energi versus a hybrid has a lot to do with the variables of the kWh rate you pay your electric company and the cost of gasoline at the pump.  The more trips you are able to make without having to use gasoline, and the higher the cost of gasoline, the more economical the Energi will be.

 

There is a hassle factor plugging the car in every time you pull it into the garage or stretching out your portable cord to plug in when you are away from home, but if you are committed to the idea of driving on electricity, it can be worth the effort.

 

My commute is only 26 miles round trip and I am able to charge at work.  I filled the tank three weeks ago and have driven 528 miles using 4.6 gallons of gasoline (114 mpg of gas).  421 miles were EV, 78% of the total miles.  If my wife had not used the car for work a couple of days when it was cold, the percentage of EV driving would have been higher and the car would have used less gas.  I think that the Energi fits my driving pattern well and probably makes good economic sense.

 

It might be helpful if some smart person sat down and worked out a formula that could handle all the variables - purchase price, EVSE installation, cost of electricity, cost of a gallon of gas, commuting distance, cost of charging at work, mpg of the Energi vs. the hybrid, charging efficiency of 240V vs. 120V, and whatever else I have forgotten.  If you can maximize the number of miles driven on electricity, the Energi may be worth it economically.

 

There is one more factor, the pleasure of the quiet of driving on electricity, which you have more opportunity to experience in an Energi rather than in a Hybrid.

[Gigi]

A few more factors that can affect the cost of driving on gas vs. electricity. . .

 

Ambient temperature - You will drive more electric miles and the amount of electricity used will be less when the temperature outside is mild.  Batteries are less efficient when it is cold.  Think of the regular 12V battery in a car.  It has fewer cranking Amps available when it is cold.

 

Running the heater requires warming the coolant, which can happen one of four ways, preconditioning the car using a 240V EVSE (using a GO time), using remote start, which either runs the ICE or uses the battery to warm a heating element in the cooling system, just getting in the car and running the ICE, or just getting in and using the HVB to warm the cooling system and produce heat.  The hybrid has only one of these means, the same as any other non-electric car, running the ICE.  Preconditioning the car saves electric range, but it draws kWh above the amount it takes to charge your battery.  Preconditioning is like starting an ICE vehicle and letting it warm up before you get in and go.  It takes gas to do that just as it takes electricity to precondition an Energi or EV.

 

In this week's mild temperatures I am expending only 225 Wh/mile, which means that I am getting 25 miles of EV driving on a full charge rather than only 21.  When it is really cold, however, I might get only 15.

 

Driving style - There are a number of techniques that can help you maximize your EV driving.  The two most basic are to treat the accelerator and the brake pedal as if you have an egg between your foot and the pedal, and when you see that you will have to stop, start slowing down sooner rather than later.  The same techniques help maximize mileage in any vehicle.

 

Choosing when to drive in hybrid mode vs. driving in EV mode - EV mode is more efficient in stop and go traffic and at speeds of 45 mph or less.  Because of the exponential rate of increase of drag in relationship to speed, the faster you go, the more efficient it will be to use your more powerful ICE rather than the electric motor.  Like jeff_h, I switch to EV Later when I get on the highway and drive in regular hybrid mode saving my battery for when I am back on surface streets where EV mode is more efficient.

 

Maximize charging - If I plan to charge for free somewhere in the middle of a trip, I make sure that I have used every EV mile available in the battery before I get there.  I don't charge the Energi at public charging stations where there is a fee.  $1.00 per hour of charging at a public station yields only about 10 miles of range per hour.  I can go 10 miles in regular hybrid mode on $0.77 of gasoline at $3.299 a gallon.  This is a different story with our Focus Electric where an hour's charge can give 20 miles range and where charging may be necessary in order to get home.

 

Charge at every opportunity - On the weekends, we typically make a number of short trips, grocery shopping, going to the mall, going out to eat, visiting friends, etc.  Usually, we return home between these trips.  Plugging in as soon as we pull into the garage helps maximize the number of miles driven on electricity even if we go back out before the car is fully charged.

 

How often you drive long distances where 21 miles of electric range becomes relatively insignificant -  On a long trip, once the battery is depleted, lugging it along affects gas mileage, factoring into the difference in rating between the Energi 43 mpg and the Hybrid 47 mpg.  The Energi weighs about 300 pounds more than the Hybrid.  On one long trip in bad weather and with four passengers, we averaged only 37 mpg.  The mpg in a hybrid might have been a little better since there would have been 300 pounds less weight to carry.

 

This is not an exhaustive list of factors.  Others may think of more.

 

For my wife and me, driving our combination of Fusion Energi and Focus Electric works wonderfully.  In the last six days, for 400 miles of driving, we used a total of $10.00 of electricity and $1.20 of gas vs. the $77.00 we would have spent for gas in our previous two ICE daily drivers.  If you have the tendency, maximizing the number of miles driving on electricity may become an obsession.  At least it's an obsession that can save money.

[kacalapy]

Another hard pill to swallow is the savings in gas don't seem to amount to as many dollar savings as you would hope for seeing the huge mileage people get on a tank if gas.

 

In the below example 10$ spend on EV driving vs about 80 in typical fa cars means only 70$ of savings.

 

The hurdle in my mind is I can get a luxury Lexus or infinity sedan for zero out of pocket and monthly payments of about 375$. But for a ford the lease is 440$ monthly keeping everything else the same.

 

Hence the gas savings pretty much equal the increased bill of the Energi. Lacking is the rocket tack off of red lights and the like.

 

Is my thinking off?

[Gigi]

Comparisons can be difficult because of shifting purchase incentives given at one time or another.  There are also tax incentives for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles that vary depending on battery size and state.  These help to nearly equalize the cost difference between an ICE vehicle and an EV.

 

Hybrids and EVs need less maintenance - fewer oil changes, less engine wear, less brake wear.  I have a friend who has driven his Prius over 200,000 miles and hasn't needed a brake job.  Consider the cost of replacing brake pads and machining or replacing rotors.

 

Driving only your 70 mile commute 20 times a month, in an Energi, it would cost you $64 per month in gas and electricity, a Fusion Hybrid would cost you $98.20 per month in gas, and a Lexus ES350 getting 40 mpg would cost you $115.46 in gas.  This is assuming $3.299 per gallon of gas and $0.15 per kWh electricity with you charging for free at your work.

 

There are lots of numbers to crunch and since you are a technical engineer, you should be way better than I am at crunching them.

[Eric4539]

Let me give you a non technical, not mathematical explanation on why I bought my Energi Titanium.

 

My previous car was a 2008 Nissan Altima Hybrid with every option.  I wanted luxury and good mileage.  I loved the responsiveness and consistent 33 mpg of the Nissan.  When Ford restyled the Fusion and offered the Plug-in Hybrid, I decided that this car was my next step before taking the 100% EV leap.

 

For me, it was all about improving my overall MPG or MPGe over the Nissan, safety features, technology, and luxury.  So my Energi has every option.  The Energi Titanium trumps the Altima Hybrid in every way.  You won’t win many stop light drag races with the Energi - the Altima was peppier, but there are so many more features on the Energi that other manufacturers did not offer at the time.  It took me several months to finally decide to purchase the Energi but I am immensely happy with it.  No regrets whatsoever!

 

I know I will never recover the price difference for the Energi in fuel savings at the pump.  But I can tell you that my gas bill has decreased by half.  I also have a Toyota Tacoma so from $250 + per month in gas to $100-$120 I am happy with the savings.  I take at least one 250 miles roundtrip every month and several 120 miles trips every month.  I am consistently achieving 43 mpg with the Energi.  Others on this forum do considerably better than I do.

 

My Uncle has a brand new Lexus ES350 which is beautiful.  I had the opportunity to ride in it on the freeway and I can tell you that my Energi Titanium is noticeably quieter.  I was very surprised at how loud the Lexus was, but the Energi Titanium has noise cancellation that really works.

 

It really depends on what you want from the Energi over a Lexus or Infiniti.  If you want power then Infiniti is your car.  Lexus if you want outstanding build quality.  Energi Titanium if you want everything in one package and the option to drive on 100% electricity for trips around 22 miles roundtrip.  If you can charge at work it makes it even better.

 

I hope this helps you decide to lease the Energi!  After all, it isn’t always about the money is it?   :)

[Gigi]

Checking the Ford website, I see that the Fusion Hybrid Titanium and the Fusion Energi Titanium are about $4,000 different in price.  That's the amount of the Federal rebate.  If other things are equal such as standard equipment and discounts, that makes buying a Hybrid vs. an Energi a wash.

[bjorn]

Some states, like California, also give you a state refund ($1500 in CA), combined with driving in car pool lanes makes it an even easier decision.

I've had my Energi Titanium since September and would get one again in a heartbeat. Moved up from an '04 Prius and get the same highway mileage on the energi in hybrid mode as I did with the Prius.

Of course buying a car is an emotional purchase, so everyone will have different reactions to different cars.

 

Bjorn

[kacalapy]

It seems the energi is a great choice if you make lots of small trips - about 20 mikes total. This way you are mostly using EV to get around.

 

It's less desirable if you have longer typical drives of 50 or more mikes since your caped at 20 mikes of EV mode you will burn gas most of the time.

 

And if you frequently go long - over 60 mile trips than the weight of the battery detracts from mpg and the hybrid would be best since you get additional 5mpg and because the EV driving will be only a small amount of the road driven.

 

Not charging at work would be a big hit and put me on the wrong side of the fence. If able to charge at work than energi seems to edge out the hybrid.

 

Thoughts?

[Kybuck]

My daily commute is ~50 miles round trip, with no charging at work. I still regularly get 22-25 miles on EV mode, meaning electricity can get me most of the way home (I use EV later on my way in to take better advantage of the EV during the lower speed commute home).  Just as importantly (to me) the Energi gives me access to the HOV lane as a solo driver, which easily saves me 20-30 minutes on an average day.  As others have stated, after Federal and CA discounts, there was little (if any) actual price difference between the Hybrid and Energi.  I'm spending around 25% of what I used to spend on gas - half disappeared due to utilizing EV mode for almost half of my commute, and for most of my local errands on weekends.  The other 25% was from the 40+ MPG in hybrid mode being twice what my previous car had.

 

The hybrid MPG and Energi MPG likely don't actually differ by as much as the EPA numbers reflect.  The Energi's MPG was determined by testing the CMax Energi, and the Fusion hybrid's testing was used to determine the CMax Hybrid's rating.  FuelEconomy.gov estimates 1-2% MPG decrease per 100 lbs of weight.  So somewhere between 3-6% difference, which is still less than the 8.5% EPA combined difference between the Hybrid and Energi.  Based on other studies (this one actually simulated a previous generation Fusion), a 5% weight decrease is a 1.3% MPG improvement and a 10% weight decrease is only a 2.7% MPG improvement (slide 25/page 26).  At ~3900 lb curb weight, the battery pack is ~7.7% of the Energi's weight.

 

In the end, if you can get the Energi for the same approximate cost of the hybrid, and you can use EV mode for at least 25% of your driving, you should save money on "fuel" costs (electricity + gasoline).  That's assuming average power costs below $0.25/kWh or so. 

[Gigi]

It seems the energi is a great choice if you make lots of small trips - about 20 mikes total. This way you are mostly using EV to get around.

 

It's less desirable if you have longer typical drives of 50 or more mikes since your caped at 20 mikes of EV mode you will burn gas most of the time.

 

And if you frequently go long - over 60 mile trips than the weight of the battery detracts from mpg and the hybrid would be best since you get additional 5mpg and because the EV driving will be only a small amount of the road driven.

 

Not charging at work would be a big hit and put me on the wrong side of the fence. If able to charge at work than energi seems to edge out the hybrid.

 

Thoughts?

Exactly!

 

If I had a job that required traveling out of town frequently or one with a commute longer than 60 miles without an opportunity for free or low cost charging, I would buy a hybrid.  Because I typically drive short trips with frequent opportunities for charging, I am able to drive the Energi most of the time as an EV at about 3¢ per mile vs. almost 8¢ per mile using gas.

 

I think the Fusion Hybrid is an outstanding car.  The ability to drive at 47 mpg and about 7¢ per mile is more valuable to me than jack-rabbit acceleration.  The hybrid has more than adequate acceleration for my needs.  In my driving experience, it is smoother and seems to accelerate effortlessly in comparison with the ICE Fusion.  With all of the options available on the Fusion, I think that one can buy a very well appointed, comfortable, economical car.

[kacalapy]

As an aside, the numbers presented in this thread should help countless others, and those soon to be in the same shoes...

 

I think it's important to note many of the responders are west coast/ Cali.

 

Though I lose a fair amount of the actuals posted here because I am in the NY/ NJ area. It still seems like a good gamble to take. There is more upside potential whereas the downside is capped. It's a scary choice but theoretically logic dictates it's a good move.

 

Thanks posters for the incredible detail and info presented here.

[shaggy314]

When you look at the trunk make sure they demonstrate that both rear seat backs can be folded down and there is a small area to pass through from the trunk to the interior of the car.  I have brought several 8 foot 2x4 s home from Lowe's using that pass through.

 

But you had to drive them home one at a time. :hysterical:

Edited February 25, 2014 at 07:33 PM by shaggy314

[kacalapy]

Yes it's dumb to leave a slit that thin as a pass through. You can't even get a snowboard in there.

 

If only the battery was lower to allow more of a pass through area... Ohh well