larryh Posted June 19, 2015 at 03:29 PM Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 at 03:29 PM (edited) This is the same data for a week earlier using value charging. This time it charged until the displayed SOC was 15% for 22 minutes. It then continued for another 1:40 minutes the next morning, completing 50 minutes before the GO time. This time it ran the fan that draws interior air from the cabin the entire time while charging from 5:43 pm to 6:05 pm. The HVB temperature started out at 95 F and cooled to 93 F while charging. The inlet temperature started at 90 F and cooled to 89 F. the interior cabin temperate was steady at 86 F. The outside temperature was 72 F. Again, the inlet door closed after charging had finished. So it appears the car decided not to continue cooling the battery after charging stop, even though the outside air was much cooler than the HVB. Edited June 19, 2015 at 03:30 PM by larryh Hybridbear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 19, 2015 at 04:51 PM Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 at 04:51 PM (edited) Where is there a sudden temp drop all the time? Must be like a 2 degree resolution? Last time was from 97 to 95? In real life it can't be... At 22 minutes charge time on 240v, sounds like you were at 0% HVB and it charged the hybrid back up and then some more on the HVB. I wonder why this time and not other times? -=>Raja. Edited June 19, 2015 at 04:54 PM by rbort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted June 19, 2015 at 05:22 PM Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 at 05:22 PM (edited) All the PID measurements are quantized--they are have to fit into 8 or 16-bit binary numbers. For the HVB, the resolution is 1 C degree. So the temperature is going to jump in steps of 9/5 of a Fahrenheit degree. I have no idea what algorithm Ford uses for Value Charging. It is different every time. I haven't tried to find a correlation between how much the car will charge the HVB immediately after plugging in when using Value Charging. It the HVB is not depleted, it will wait until the lowest cost charge windows to charge. The past three weeks it charged from (absolute SOC): 15.49% to 43.72% when HVB temp was 99 F,16.10% to 42.34% when HVB temp was 102 F,16.21% to 32.16% when HVB temp was 95 F. Edited June 19, 2015 at 05:23 PM by larryh Hybridbear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 19, 2015 at 06:04 PM Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 at 06:04 PM That seems odd, maybe something is wrong with the value charging setup? Are you saying it charges every time you plug it in if the HVB is below 21% or 0% indicates and up to 32-44%? What about the other example you said, was that 15% when it stopped? 15% where, not absolute SOC but 15% indicated on the MFT screen? What happens if you do it with the 120v charger, does it behave differently? Remember to make the charge window 8 hours not 6. -=>Raja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted June 19, 2015 at 06:37 PM Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 at 06:37 PM (edited) Displayed SOC is what MFM reports. Absolute SOC is the actual SOC of the HVB. Using the 120 v charger during weekdays is problematic. The car won't finish charging in time for me to go to work if I use Value Charging (and don't charge during peak hours). In addition, the electric rate for 120 V charger is twice the rate for the 240 V charger--only the 240 V charger is on the separately metered circuit for the special EV rates. Using the 120 V charger would only increase the length of time it charges immediately after plugging in. The highest cost charge Value Charge window is during peak hours from 4:00 pm until 12:00 am. The next highest charge window is from 12:00 am to 3:00 am. The least cost charge window is from 3:00 am to 4:00 pm. I have the same schedule for both weekdays and weekends. There is absolutely no reason it should need to charge immediately when I plug it in at 5:00 pm to be ready for work by 5:30 am. If it is attempting to minimize charging costs, it can use the lowest cost charging window from 3:00 am to 5:30 am. If it needs more time, it can use the second least cost charging window from 12:00 am to 3:00 am. There is absolutely no need to charge during the highest cost charge window from 4:00 pm to 12:00 pm. It only takes two hours to charge. Value Charging must be using some other criteria, i.e. low SOC of the HVB, to initiate immediate charging. It would be very difficult to reverse engineer all the criteria Ford uses for Value Charging. Edited June 19, 2015 at 07:07 PM by larryh Hybridbear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted June 19, 2015 at 08:45 PM Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 at 08:45 PM (edited) I do have another frequent destination that I use the 120 V charger at and have a Value Charge profile similar to what I have at home. The only difference is the highest cost profile is longer from 10 am to 12 midnight. Last night I plugged the car in at 4:21 pm. It charged immediately in the highest cost value charge window for 57 minutes to 15% displayed SOC. Then it charged in the second highest value charge window starting at midnight until 2:21 am. It then completed charging from 3:00 am to 4:58 am in the lowest cost charge window. The Go time was 5:30 am. So It needed to charge in the second highest value charge window from 12 midnight to 3:00 am. However, with the 120 V charger, it probably needed to charge immediately to ensure the car was fully charged by 5:30 am, but not for 57 minutes. It appears it was attempting to charge the car to 15% displayed SOC again. So this is not the best example. Edited June 19, 2015 at 08:53 PM by larryh Hybridbear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:12 AM Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:12 AM (edited) So please allow me to break this down for you, You have a charge window from midnight to 3am (2nd cheapest)And you have a charge window from 3am to 5:30am (cheapest)And the rest is high $$$s window. So then you come in with a dead battery and plug in the car. The leaf screen probably show like 6.5 to 7 hours to charge.Value charge windows today is 5.5 hours, so the car needs to charge for 1 hour or so now, so it can charge the rest in the value charge windows. Charging the car always yields a quicker charge then the original estimate in the leaf screen. If you watch that carefully while charging you'll see that the time to complete is always moving backwards when charging, for example if you're sitting in the car and charging on 240v while waiting for the car to finish so you can continue your trip. So the car charges up for 57 minutes, get to 15% SOC level and stops figuring its got 5 hours later which is enough to get it to 100%. Then at midnight it starts the 2nd most expensive window, charges until 2:21am and stops why? Because the car figured it can make it to 100% in the remaining lowest cost window. (remember the car charges faster than its own estimate). So in the end it beats its last estimate and finishes charging at 4:58am. Total charge time is 57 minutes at first, then 2 hours 21 minutes, then finally in the lowest cost window from 3 to 4:58 or 1 hour 58 minutes. 57 + 141 + 118 = 326 minutes or 5 hours 26 minutes to charge on the 120v charger. Mine habitually fills up somewhere under the 6 hour mark on average, so your car is just the same and all this makes perfect sense and is logical. I'm not sure why its confusing some, but read above in pieces it should make total sense of what is going on with the car. Thanks for using the 120v charger so I could compare apples to apples with mine and find out exactly what I expected to be happening. -=>Raja. Edited June 20, 2015 at 02:23 AM by rbort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:19 AM Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:19 AM BY the way, you may have stumbled on a bug in the system. You car charging up when you plug it in with a 240v charger to one of these: "15.49% to 43.72% when HVB temp was 99 F,16.10% to 42.34% when HVB temp was 102 F,16.21% to 32.16% when HVB temp was 95 F." Could very well be because the car does not anticipate that its plugged into a 240v charger and the logic for value charging assumes 120v stock level 1 charging. In order to stop this from happening, expand the 3am window to 11am and delete the other 12 to 3am window and see if the car starts up at 3am from here on out. I love figuring out puzzles, let me know if that works for you! -=>Raja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted June 20, 2015 at 12:06 PM Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 12:06 PM (edited) BY the way, you may have stumbled on a bug in the system. You car charging up when you plug it in with a 240v charger to one of these: "15.49% to 43.72% when HVB temp was 99 F,16.10% to 42.34% when HVB temp was 102 F,16.21% to 32.16% when HVB temp was 95 F." Could very well be because the car does not anticipate that its plugged into a 240v charger and the logic for value charging assumes 120v stock level 1 charging. In order to stop this from happening, expand the 3am window to 11am and delete the other 12 to 3am window and see if the car starts up at 3am from here on out. I love figuring out puzzles, let me know if that works for you! -=>Raja.The car knows it is plugged into a 240 V charger. It shows the correct estimated time to charge the car using the 240 V charger. The least cost value charge window for the location using the 240 V charger is from 3:00 am to 4:00 pm. The Value Charge profile provides 5.5 hours of lower cost charge windows from 12:00 am to 5:30 am prior to the GO time at 5:30 am. It only takes 2 hours to charge the HVB using the 240 V charger. There is no reason (other than low SOC) for the car to start charging immediately in the highest cost charge window. It only does this when the SOC is low. The car charges the HVB immediately because of low SOC and overrides the value charge schedule. Edited June 20, 2015 at 12:49 PM by larryh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted June 20, 2015 at 12:29 PM Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 12:29 PM (edited) So please allow me to break this down for you, You have a charge window from midnight to 3am (2nd cheapest)And you have a charge window from 3am to 5:30am (cheapest)And the rest is high $$$s window. -=>Raja. The least cost value charge window was from 3 am to 10 am for this charge location using the 120 V charger. The GO time was at 5:30 am. The car charged immediately to a displayed SOC of 15%. There is no way to conclusively determine the exact reason why the car charged immediately for 57 minutes when the car was plugged into the 120 V charger. The 120 V charger takes too long to charge the car. There is not enough time in the lower cost value charge windows prior to 5:30 am, so it has to charge in the highest cost charge window. But it probably did not have to charge for 57 minutes. It probably charged for 57 minutes because of low SOC. Edited June 20, 2015 at 12:46 PM by larryh Hybridbear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybridbear Posted June 20, 2015 at 01:21 PM Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 01:21 PM The car knows it is plugged into a 240 V charger. It shows the correct estimated time to charge the car using the 240 V charger. The least cost value charge window for the location using the 240 V charger is from 3:00 am to 4:00 pm. The Value Charge profile provides 5.5 hours of lower cost charge windows from 12:00 am to 5:30 am prior to the GO time at 5:30 am. It only takes 2 hours to charge the HVB using the 240 V charger. There is no reason (other than low SOC) for the car to start charging immediately in the highest cost charge window. It only does this when the SOC is low. The car charges the HVB immediately because of low SOC and overrides the value charge schedule. On the MFT screen you can set a Value Charge profile for 120V or 240V charging. Is your Value Charge profile for home correctly showing 240V charging when you're at home? The car does check and determine what type of EVSE is connected to provide an accurate charging estimate on MFM, but maybe the car is charging immediately because the Value Charge profile for home is telling the car that you're going to connect to 120V so it charges immediately and later on it stops because it knows that it's actually connected to 240V. Our car has NEVER done this immediate charge behavior at home. It only did it once while we were using the 120V charger at a hotel while traveling a couple weeks ago. rbort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:09 PM Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:09 PM ^^^ There you go Larry. That goes with this "That seems odd, maybe something is wrong with the value charging setup?" I remember seeing that setting that Bear is talking about, but forgot about it until he mentioned it. Check that and/or enlarge your window like I suggested as a test and see the behavior difference. -=>Raja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:23 PM Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:23 PM (edited) ^^^ There you go Larry. That goes with this "That seems odd, maybe something is wrong with the value charging setup?" I remember seeing that setting that Bear is talking about, but forgot about it until he mentioned it. Check that and/or enlarge your window like I suggested as a test and see the behavior difference. -=>Raja. The car does not always charge immediately when the SOC is low and value charging is enabled. Only Ford knows the exact criteria for overriding the value charge profile. The settings are correct. There is nothing to change. Ford said they override the value charge profile when SOC is low and I observe the car doing so. So I do not suspect there is anything wrong. Edited June 20, 2015 at 02:37 PM by larryh Hybridbear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:31 PM Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:31 PM (edited) On the MFT screen you can set a Value Charge profile for 120V or 240V charging. Is your Value Charge profile for home correctly showing 240V charging when you're at home? The car does check and determine what type of EVSE is connected to provide an accurate charging estimate on MFM, but maybe the car is charging immediately because the Value Charge profile for home is telling the car that you're going to connect to 120V so it charges immediately and later on it stops because it knows that it's actually connected to 240V. Our car has NEVER done this immediate charge behavior at home. It only did it once while we were using the 120V charger at a hotel while traveling a couple weeks ago. The 120V vs 240V charging is for the default value charge profile. It is not used for my home value charge profile. In any case, the default is 240V charging. Edited June 20, 2015 at 02:32 PM by larryh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:36 PM Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:36 PM (edited) The car does not always charge immediately when the SOC is low and value charging is enabled. Only Ford knows the exact criteria for overriding the value charge profile. The settings are correct. OK, humor me then and enlarge the charge window and set it from 3am to 11am only and see after driving the car today if the car charges immediately or not when you plug it in this evening. Let's investigate the bug theory... -=>Raja. Edited June 20, 2015 at 02:36 PM by rbort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:41 PM Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:41 PM The value charge window is already set from 3am to 4 pm. And as I have mentioned, I don't know the exact criteria for when the car will start charging immediately or not. It does not always do it when the SOC is low. Its works the way that it works. Hybridbear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:52 PM Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:52 PM (edited) The value charge window is already set from 3am to 4 pm. You mean you just changed it today to try out? It should look something like this except with different hours - this one is from 4am to noon. That's what I want you to try. Close the window back from 4pm to 11am for me. This way you can plug the car in this afternoon and it won't be in the window if before 4pm. -=>Raja. Edited June 20, 2015 at 02:53 PM by rbort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:59 PM Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 02:59 PM (edited) The lowest cost window has always been from 3am to 4pm. The value charge profile is set the way I intend it to be set. The highest cost window is from 4pm to 12 am (during peak hours to avoid exorbitant electric rates). I have no reason to change the value charge profile. I want the lowest cost window from 3 am to 4 pm so I can charge the car when I get home from work from 3 pm to 4 pm, if I want the car charged for later in the afternoon. Edited June 20, 2015 at 03:06 PM by larryh Hybridbear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 20, 2015 at 03:33 PM Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 at 03:33 PM Ok, sounds like yours works the same way as mine on 120v charging and not the same way as Bear's on 240v. -=>Raja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybridbear Posted June 21, 2015 at 01:54 AM Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 at 01:54 AM (edited) Today when I got home around 2:30 and plugged in the Energi the HVB temp was 89. The temp in our underground garage at our apartment is usually around 75-78 this time of year. The fan was running while I was driving and started running immediately when I got home. It is still running now. Edit: I just went down and checked the car. The HVB is now 86 F so it hasn't cooled much even with almost 7 hours of fans running. The fan is still running. Edited June 21, 2015 at 02:05 AM by Hybridbear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybridbear Posted June 21, 2015 at 02:04 AM Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 at 02:04 AM The 120V vs 240V charging is for the default value charge profile. It is not used for my home value charge profile. In any case, the default is 240V charging. You are correct. I didn't realize this was only for the default profile. My default is set to 120V charging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 21, 2015 at 02:04 AM Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 at 02:04 AM (edited) Did the car charge at all or just running the fan? My fan runs all the time too when I plug in the car, well at least the times I've plugged it in. Just got back from TGI Fridays. I charged at the 99 while we were there - about a 3/4 mile walk from the 99 to TGI. Anyway its like an 8 mile trip, I still got 76% left in the battery. I didn't bother plugging it in to cool, its not that hot outside and I didn't use the battery hard today to make a difference. -=>Raja. Edited June 21, 2015 at 02:05 AM by rbort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 21, 2015 at 02:24 AM Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 at 02:24 AM Just for shits and giggles, I plugged the car in and the fan is running, KW meter shows 150 watt and the car is waiting to charge. Fan sounds slow, but the draw seems to be higher than what I saw before at 60w, it may slow down further and drop the draw, I'm going to give it a few minutes to see what happens. -=>Raja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 21, 2015 at 02:31 AM Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 at 02:31 AM Ok yeah its down to 53 watts now. -=>Raja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbort Posted June 21, 2015 at 02:46 AM Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 at 02:46 AM Just went to check on it one last time, its back up to 84 watts and I can hear the fan a little faster now. Anyway I'm going to unplug it, just wanted to see that it wasn't going to charge any and it didn't. None was expected. -=>Raja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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