Cold Weather Observations

[tseibel76]

My range is definitely lower in the cold weather too.  It was about -5 all day yesterday and the car sat out at work all day.  I went a total of 18 miles yesterday before the battery ran out.  But, that was with the ICE cycling on and off to keep the heat going that whole time.  Also, that included 3.9 miles in the morning that was all electric (which used about 12% of the battery).  I used 88% of the battery for the remaining 14.5 miles in the afternoon, when the ICE was cycling on and off (and used about 0.20 gallons of gas).  Earlier this fall, in warmer weather, I could go 22-24 miles and still have a 1/3rd of the battery left, all in electric mode, no gas.  

 

In the morning when I go to work, I leave from a heated garage and can go to work the whole way in all electric.  Yesterday morning on the way to work it was -16.  However, the ICE never came on.  I'm assuming this was because the HVB was warm from the garage and I didn't need to use any heat.  The ICE never came on, even for "Normal Operations".  

 

It is -23 here this morning at the house but the car is in the garage.  The high is -8 today and I have errands to run.  I will run all of them after leaving the heated garage and will not have the car sitting out all day long.  I'm curious to see what effect this has vs. when the car sits out in the cold for a long period of time.  We'll see.  However, I think the HVB sitting out in the cold really drains it and forces the ICE to come on, for either "Normal Operations" or "Heater Settings".  This makes sense, given all batteries hate cold.  

[larryh]

Yesterday, it was -6.  It was 16 degrees in the garage where I had preconditioned the car.  I left the house in EV mode.  Within a minute, the ICE came on, and EV now and EV later modes were disabled.  They remained disabled for about 15 miles until the HVB was depleted.  I'm not going to get the range that you do, since the speed limits on the streets for my commute to work are 55 mph. 

 

I drove the car 56 miles, so it was well warmed up.  I then recharged the battery for a couple of hours.  I was able to go entirely in EV mode after recharging the battery.  So if the car is warmed up (as it would be in a heated garage), the ICE will probably not turn on. 

Edited December 7, 2013 at 03:01 PM by larryh

[tseibel76]

You're right larryh.  I would definitely have lower range if my drive involved higher speeds.  I don't go over 35 MPH.  I'll let you know how today goes.  I'm leaving here in about an hour.

[larryh]

The car doesn't seem to be doing a good job of recognizing the Intelligent Access Key this morning.  I had to use the Keyless Entry Keypad to unlock the doors.  And then insert the Intelligent Access Key in the backup slot in the console.  It was only temporary.  It works properly now.

Edited December 7, 2013 at 06:01 PM by larryh

[danwat1234]

I'm assuming these temperatures are all in Fahrenheit? The cars are doing well if in Fahrenheit.

 

EDIT: Apparently the Chevy Volt can do the same, engine not running during cold temperatures,  IF you mod it so the car thinks the ambient air temperature is reading above 32F all the time :)

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?31313-Dealer-resetting-the-ERDTT-to-the-lower-value-on-2012s-and-earlier&p=1171874#post1171874

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9sd3ds

Edited December 9, 2013 at 08:50 AM by danwat1234

[tseibel76]

Yes danwat1234, all temps are in Fahrenheit.  I left the house with a full battery from a heated garage.  It has been between -13 and -15 here all day.  I drove around on my errands and after about 20 minutes from leaving the garage, the ICE fired up, indicating it was on due to "Normal Operation".  I did not use heat all day today because I wanted to see what the car would need to do on its own in this type of cold.  The ICE cycled every now and then, like normal.  However, it cycled much less than when I have the heat on.  I went 22 miles on the battery and had about 8% left.  It seems climate, even at these temps, still draws a lot from the battery.  I would assume in these conditions I would not have been able to go that far if I would have had the heat on. 

 

Either way, yes danwat1234, the car is pretty impressive at how much it can stay in all electric at -15.  I am always amazed.  The long and the short of this is that I will not be able to go back to all electric until sometime in March.

[larryh]

Today it has been 0 all day long.  It was about 20 degrees in the garage.  Preconditioning took 45 minutes and consumed 2.2 kWh of electricity (about $0.15).  That is better than taking 10 minutes to warm up the car using the ICE and consuming about 0.1 gallons of gas ($0.29).  The car was nice and warm at the GO Time and I was able to go to work entirely in EV mode when set to EV Now.  I had to turn on the climate and heater every once in a while to defog the windows. 

 

I was also able to drive entirely in EV mode, at least initially until the HVB was depleted (which didn't last very long), with the heater on after the car sat outside all day.  For the 8 mile trip, it consumed almost 0.2 gallons of gas and 2.5 kWh of electricity (27 MPGe vs 150 MPGe in the summer).  I'm not quite sure what the threshold is for disabling EV mode operation in the cold.

 

I noticed yesterday when I charged the car, that after it had completed charging the HVB, it continued to consume power for another 2 hours.  I'm not quite sure how much power it was taking, but it was probably around 100 Watts.  I wonder what it was doing?

Edited December 9, 2013 at 11:12 PM by larryh

[murphy]

I noticed yesterday when I charged the car, that after it had completed charging the HVB, it continued to consume power for another 2 hours.  I'm not quite sure how much power it was taking, but it was probably around 100 Watts.  I wonder what it was doing?

It was charging the 12 volt battery.

[larryh]

It was charging the 12 volt battery.

But I wonder if that is all that it was doing.  It charges the 12 V battery anytime it requires power from the charger, e.g. while waiting to start value charging.  I can't be sure that it wasn't drawing power for some other reason, or it was just to recharge the 12 V battery. 

Edited December 9, 2013 at 10:32 PM by larryh

[larryh]

Note that the MPGe for the commute to work was 98 MPGe with preconditioning.  The MPGe for the trip home, without preconditioning, was 27 MPGe.  I consumed the same kWh from the high voltage battery for both trips.  The return trip required 0.2 gallons of gas was the difference.  If I include the kWh for preconditioning for the trip to work, the MPGe is reduced to about 54.   So preconditioning is cost effective, especially since electricity is much cheaper than gas by about a factor of 3.6.  In addition, I start out in a warm car. 

 

Actually, the cost to work was $0.39.  The cost home was $0.77.  Normally, the total roundtrip cost in the summer is $0.24.  It cost more than four times as much to drive at 0 degrees vs. 70 degrees. 

Edited December 11, 2013 at 12:49 AM by larryh

[larryh]

The car is continuing to draw about 110 watts of power again this morning from the charger after charging the HVB has completed.  Maybe the cold weather is hard on the 12 V battery and it needs to be recharged longer?   It runs the fans and climate control for 45 minutes during preconditioning.  Also, the fans are on high for climate control while driving to and from work.  During my 12 minute commute, it probably doesn't have enough time to fully recharge the 12 V battery?  I might need to reset my timer to 1 am, rather than 3 am, to give it sufficient time to complete charging.  It only has just over an hour this morning to recharge the 12 V battery before I leave (half an hour before preconditioning)--last time it required two hours. 

Edited December 10, 2013 at 11:11 AM by larryh

[murphy]

The "rule of thumb", from 50 years ago, was that it took 25 miles of driving to replace the energy withdrawn from the battery to start the car.  Granted that we don't have a high current starter motor so it shouldn't take that long.  The 12 volt battery is in continuous use.  Every time the MyFordMobile web site requests an update and every time the car initiates an update the current spike on the 12 volt battery exceeds 10 amps (the highest direct current that I can measure).  My longest regular weekly trip is 10.5 miles.  Throughout that trip the voltmeter that I have plugged into the forward power port indicates 14.4 volts which means the battery is being charged.  I very seldom see it drop to 13.2 volts which indicates a fully charger battery.  The majority of my trips are in the 2 to 5 mile range.  Most of the time when I receive the text message that the car is charged the charger has not shut down and continues on for an hour or two.

[tseibel76]

I've wondered about the health of the 12-volt battery in this type of cold.  So far, I have not had any issues (knock on wood).  We'll see.  I have noticed that the charging system continues to run after the HVB is fully charged and I always assumed it was charging the 12-volt battery.  I wonder if the 12-volt can ever draw from the HVB?

 

Either way, all vehicles are less efficient in cold weather.  I think when you have a very efficient vehicle like we do, you notice the decline in efficiency much more.

 

It was 10 above here yesterday afternoon and the ICE did not need to cycle on and off nearly as much as at -15.  Assuming no heat, it seems to me that the 10 above mark is the threshold for ICE cycling vs. no cycling.  With heat, I think the ICE will cycle at about 20 degrees or colder (at least at start-up to get things warmed up).  I'll keep experimenting.  It is supposed to get to 20 on Thursday (12/12), so I'll see if I can keep the ICE off all day.  We get cold again starting on Friday.

[murphy]

One thing to consider.  The HVB gets its air from the vent on the rear shelf.  If the cabin isn't heated the air going to the battery will be cooler than if the cabin was heated.  This might make the battery capacity lower than if the cabin was heated.  How much?  I don't know and I'm not interested enough too try to measure it.

[danwat1234]

Crappy lead acid accessory batteries are to blame for high vampire losses of Model S's. Apparently it can charge the lead battery when not plugged in and I saw a post about the Leaf topping off the lead battery by itself as well every once in a while if not plugged in (Dave.R. "The Nissan LEAF will wake up every 5-7 days or so to top off the 12V battery if not plugged in. But no more frequently than that." http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1088929_life-with-tesla-model-s-electric-draw-vampire-slain-at-last ). The Ford might be able to do the same thing.

http://slashdot.org/story/13/12/06/1848215/tesla-model-s-battery-drain-issue-fixed

[larryh]

Most of the time when I receive the text message that the car is charged the charger has not shut down and continues on for an hour or two.

 

I have only seen the charger continue to charge the 12 V battery after finishing charging the HVB once before now.  I look at the recordings for the power consumed for the past two months.   Every time, the charger shuts down shortly after the HVB finished charging.  So this is new charging behavior for me.  I have some hour long trips during the week, so that must have been keeping the 12 V fully charged.  But now the cold weather is putting more stress on the 12 V battery so it needs additional charging?

Edited December 10, 2013 at 07:30 PM by larryh

[larryh]

I reset the timer to start charging at 1:00 am.  Today, the car wasn't interested in charging the 12 V battery.  The charger shutdown normally after the HVB was fully charged.  So, it appears that continuing to charge the 12 V battery after the HVB is not the norm for my driving pattern (even in Winter).  The previous day was probably just an exception. 

Edited December 11, 2013 at 11:38 AM by larryh

[Russael]

Tonight I drove from my cousin's home (about 7 1/2 miles away) back to my house with the outdoor temps at 9 degrees.  I drive the car in EV Now mode all the time... never use auto or EV later.  At least not yet.  I did not use the heat coming home but did use the heated seat on high which made it surprisingly easy to deal with.  Temps dipped to 7 in some spots on the road but otherwise the engine never came on.  I had 12 miles of battery when I left his home and had 4 remaining when I pulled in the garage.  Still not quite sure what the threshold is for making the engine come on regardless of EV setting without climate.

[larryh]

It helps to park the car in a garage.  My attached garage is about 20 degrees warmer than outside.  As long as it is not much below 0, I am able to drive the 8 miles to work in EV mode using EV now.  If it is much below zero, the ICE turns on, especially if I turn on climate control for heat, or to prevent the windows from icing up.  I do not use the defroster (which would turn on the AC). 

 

I do not have enough charge in the HVB battery to make it back home when it is cold.  So I can't be sure what the threshold is when the car is left outside in the cold.  Maybe 10 degrees?  But it does come on sooner than if it were parked in the garage.  If the car has been previously warmed up, the threshold is lower.  

 

The threshold for turn on seems to be more complicated than just the outside temperature.  Various other factors come into play.  I'm not sure if preconditioning directly affects the turn on threshold.  The interior will be warmer so you will use less heat from climate control.  The less you use climate control, the less likely for the ICE to turn on.  If the ICE is warmed up, the temperature threshold is lower. 

Edited December 12, 2013 at 10:43 PM by larryh

[Russael]

My car stays in a detached garage at home which is not insulated or climate controlled, so its ambient temperature is usually about the same as it is if it were sitting outside.  Usually if I know I have to go somewhere, I'll set a go time for that one departure and will delete it once I return home.  Otherwise I just remote start it and let it go for 10 - 15 minutes.  Even with the 240v charger, it still shaves a few miles off of the battery.

 

Last night, the car was outside for about 4 1/2 hours when the temperature dipped to 9 (coldest it's been so far in Michigan).  Having read a few other posts, I expected the engine to come on since most have noted that it kicks on around 10 above.  I was pleasantly surprised to make it all the way home without it.

 

Current estimated range the car is giving me before climate is now 18 miles, and around 12 with heat.

[SteveEnergi]

My car is garaged and not heated, but always warmer than the outdoors.

 

It was about 18 degrees outside when leaving for work and the engine came on as soon as I pulled out of the driveway.  If I set it to EV Now, the car asks to "start the engine".  I have to drive about 2 to 3 miles before it goes back to EV mode.  I am using climate set at 70 degrees.  "Go times" aren't working (appointment next week), but are set to 72 degrees.  The EV depletes pretty quickly in the cold.  My commute is 5.7 miles.

 

Full charge in the morning shows 14 miles (cold with climate on), when it's warm out it shows about (24 miles) with climate off.

 

Steve

[tseibel76]

My car stays in a detached garage at home which is not insulated or climate controlled, so its ambient temperature is usually about the same as it is if it were sitting outside. Usually if I know I have to go somewhere, I'll set a go time for that one departure and will delete it once I return home. Otherwise I just remote start it and let it go for 10 - 15 minutes. Even with the 240v charger, it still shaves a few miles off of the battery.

 

Last night, the car was outside for about 4 1/2 hours when the temperature dipped to 9 (coldest it's been so far in Michigan). Having read a few other posts, I expected the engine to come on since most have noted that it kicks on around 10 above. I was pleasantly surprised to make it all the way home without it.

 

Current estimated range the car is giving me before climate is now 18 miles, and around 12 with heat.

The 10 degree threshold is with heat (and in EV Auto). However, larryh is right, there are a lot of factors. Ambient temp, climate setting, how long it has been out in the cold, etc.

 

I have found (in EV Auto) that the ICE will cycle with the heat on at around 10 degrees or colder. It might not fire right away, but will eventually. Also, once the car has warmed up, the cycling is much less frequent. However, once you dip below zero, the ICE will fire even w/o heat ("Normal Operation") if the car has been sitting in it long enough. How long? I don't know. However, this amount of time seems to be a big factor.

 

The other morning it was -24 here. I left from my heated garage, left the heat off, and the ICE never fired in the 15 minutes to work. However, the car then sat all day (9 hours) and the ICE immediately fired at start-up that evening (it was about 8 above out). So, a lot of factors dictate exactly when the ICE will be forced to come on.

 

I have always used EV Auto. However, it seems from some posts you may be able to keep the ICE from firing in EV Now mode. I'll have to experiment.

Edited December 12, 2013 at 09:44 PM by tseibel76

[larryh]

I noticed today that turning on and off climate control for heat when the car is cold may not be the most efficient way to warm up the car's interior when the ICE is not running.   I have the left console displaying the coolant temperature.  As the electric heater warms the engine coolant, I observe the results on the display.   When I turn off the climate control, the gauge shows the temperature dropping back to minimum temperature.  When I restart climate control, it takes some time before the gauge shows the engine coolant warm again.  Meanwhile, the air coming from the vents seems to be cold again.  So turning it on and off is probably wasting energy.   Its OK if your goal is to defog the windows.  But it doesn't seem to be the most efficient way to warm up the car. 

Edited December 12, 2013 at 10:42 PM by larryh

[tseibel76]

I noticed today that turning on and off climate control for heat when the car is cold may not be the most efficient way to warm up the car's interior when the ICE is not running. I have the left console displaying the coolant temperature. As the electric heater warms the engine coolant, I observe the results on the display. When I turn off the climate control, the gauge shows the temperature dropping back to minimum temperature. When I restart climate control, it takes some time before the gauge shows the engine coolant warm again. Meanwhile, the air coming from the vents seems to be cold again. So turning it on and off is probably wasting energy. Its OK if your goal is to defog the windows. But it doesn't seem to be the most efficient way to warm up the car.

I've noticed the same thing this past fall. It was one of the first times firing the ICE and I freaked out, shut everything down, etc. When I turned the heat back on, the ICE fired back up, because it needed to. I learned quick to let the system do what it needed to do. Firing a cold ICE over and over is about as inefficient as it gets.

[Russael]

Michigan just had its first major snowfall of the year.  We got about 5 inches yesterday in the Detroit region, with some fluffy white stuff still blowing around today, and another inch or two predicted for Monday.

 

I must say, I'm VERY impressed with how the car handled the snow; even getting in and out of side streets with that huge mound of snowplow mush at the entrances.  Starting off was a bit slow, but the car never sat and simply spun the wheels.  Traction control came on once, but all in all, this is leaps and bounds over what my Focus would do... sitting and spinning the wheels.  Of course, it's no 4 wheel drive, but for what it is, I'm happy.

 

And I have run my ICE for the first time today as well.  Parent's home is 9 miles away, plus an additional 2 for the trip to the restaurant.  I was about 1/2 mile short of making it home without the ICE.  It was sure quick to 'de-forest' my efficiency leaves.  It looked like a tornado was just ripping them away.  I turned the stereo off so I could hear it kick on and I never really did.  The only time I actually heard it burbling away was when I was almost completely stopped turning in to my subdivision.  RPMs never seemed to change at all, rolling up to around 20MPH.  It ran for about 2 minutes, and then turned off.