Cold Weather Observations

[tseibel76]

I've made several posts on this thread throughout the winter.  I have to say one thing...I feel like a butterfly emerging from its cocoon.  I now get 35 miles on my battery and don't have to struggle through a trip.  Everyone in warm climates should consider themselves lucky.  Now, we'll see what happens in 100+ degree weather this summer.

[meyersnole]

I've made several posts on this thread throughout the winter.  I have to say one thing...I feel like a butterfly emerging from its cocoon.  I now get 35 miles on my battery and don't have to struggle through a trip.  Everyone in warm climates should consider themselves lucky.  Now, we'll see what happens in 100+ degree weather this summer.

 

HA! Trade one set of issues for another. Instead of using power to keep occupants and battery warm, you now need to keep both from over heating.

 

This car excels during the Spring and Fall during the temperate months... enjoy! Soon you will need to decide if how much sweat is worth a few more miles :whistling:  

 

At 100+ I would think that it would be necessary to run the AC to keep the batteries healthy. I will never know if the car will trigger it though, as I will be hitting the AC button well before it hits 90.

[tseibel76]

Cold I can take.  Heat I cannot.  I'll definitely use the AC.  Now, I'm wondering how much range loss occurs with AC use vs. the heater.  Also, I'm assuming that the ICE will not come on just because you are using AC in hot weather (like it does to assist the heater in cold weather).  Guess we'll need to start a "Hot Weather Observations" thread.

[meyersnole]

I have had the car through both seasons, and feel pretty comfortable saying that cold weather will have a larger impact than warm weather. larryh will probably be able to tell you how much... he has some excellent data on efficiency of the battery a different temperatures.

 

Another reason that driving in the cold can be worse, you could have a case where the compressor is running (for defrost) and the the heater.  Add in the dynamics that cold weather drops the efficiency of the battery and the range goes down quicker in the cold.

 

I also agree, I have a larger tolerance for some cold (with the seat warmers of course) than I do for driving around in the heat. Rather burn some gas than show up somewhere sweating.

[TX NRG]

Now, I'm wondering how much range loss occurs with AC use vs. the heater.  Also, I'm assuming that the ICE will not come on just because you are using AC in hot weather (like it does to assist the heater in cold weather).  Guess we'll need to start a "Hot Weather Observations" thread.

Depending on cabin and outside temperature and how cold you set the climate control temperature, AC use can reduce your range from 3-7+ miles. When the battery temp reaches 115, you may get "Engine Enabled for System Performance" messages if your acceleration exceeds a reduced EV only power range. There were various threads last summer that mentioned this.

[larryh]

I compared the results for two of my 8 mile commutes to work in EV mode, one when it was about 10 F and the other when it was 57 F.   
 
                                                 10 F        57 F
Plug-In Electricity Consumed from HVB            2.3  kWh    1.5  kWh
Electricity supplied to HVB from regen          -0.47 kWh   -0.51 kWh
Mechanical Energy output from Motor              2.28 kWh    1.56 kWh
Mechanical Energy supplied to Motor for Regen   -0.47 kWh   -0.54 kWh
 
It required about 46% more energy to propel the car the when it was cold.  Regen was about 8% less when it was cold.  So the main driver of decreased mileage appears to be the increased energy required to move  the car when it is cold. 
 
 

Edited May 19, 2014 at 08:28 PM by larryh

[meyersnole]

I compared the results for two of my 8 mile commutes to work in EV mode, one when it was about 10 F and the other when it was 50 F.   

 

                                                 10 F        50 F

Plug-In Electricity Consumed from HVB            2.3  kWh    1.5  kWh

Electricity supplied to HVB from regen          -0.47 kWh   -0.51 kWh

Mechanical Energy output from Motor              2.28 kWh    1.56 kWh

Mechanical Energy supplied to Motor for Regen   -0.47 kWh   -0.54 kWh

 

It required about 46% more energy to propel the car the when it was cold.  Regen was about 8% less when it was cold.  So the main driver of decreased mileage appears to be the increased energy required to move  the car when it is cold. 

 

 

 

Can we put in a request for expanding this table to include 70 and 90 degrees? I really appreciate all the information.

[larryh]

Can we put in a request for expanding this table to include 70 and 90 degrees? I really appreciate all the information.

 

I will have to wait for it to warm up.  It should be in the 70's this week.  But, 1.5 kWh is about the least amount of energy I consume for the commute. 

 

For the 57 F commute, the HVB temperature ranges from 82.4 F to 86 F.  For the 10 F commute, it ranged from 41 F to 55.4 F. 

[Rexracer]

It would be interesting to see all this information graphed.

[tseibel76]

Hey larryh,

 

I'm in the Mpls./St. Paul area through Wed., May 21st.  It rained cats and dogs here today (Monday, May 19th).  I talked to my wife and she said it was sunny and 75 back in Bismarck and we might see low 80's this weekend.  So, we might get a "warm weather" test run soon!

[tseibel76]

By the way, Fungi is sitting back in Bismarck.  Down here for work.  I now will get my first 12-volt test, as it will sit in a parking lot from Sunday morning until Wednesday afternoon.

[larryh]

It would be interesting to see all this information graphed.

The only long term data that I have retained vs. temperature is MPGe and Regen miles (post 84 and 197 in this thread).  I would have to collect more detailed information to present the information above. 

[larryh]

Hey larryh,

 

I'm in the Mpls./St. Paul area through Wed., May 21st.  It rained cats and dogs here today (Monday, May 19th).  I talked to my wife and she said it was sunny and 75 back in Bismarck and we might see low 80's this weekend.  So, we might get a "warm weather" test run soon!

Yes--we had a couple inches of rain here in St. Paul.  It will finally be almost 80 tomorrow.  Is should be much nicer here for the remainder of your visit.

Edited May 19, 2014 at 11:43 PM by larryh

[tseibel76]

It is really nice today.  I'm kiddy-corner from the XCEL Energy Center and watching everyone stream into the Lady Gaga concert.  As you can imagine, the traffic around here is horrible.  I see all of these ICE cars just sitting in traffic and think, how much gas would be saved right in front of me if they all were driving electric?

[larryh]

Can we put in a request for expanding this table to include 70 and 90 degrees? I really appreciate all the information.

I added an observation for 75 F:

 

                                                 10 F        57 F       75 F

Plug-In Electricity Consumed from HVB            2.3  kWh    1.5  kWh   1.7 kWh

Electricity supplied to HVB from regen          -0.47 kWh   -0.51 kWh  -0.50 kWh

Mechanical Energy output from Motor              2.28 kWh    1.56 kWh   1.74 kWh

Mechanical Energy supplied to Motor for Regen   -0.47 kWh   -0.54 kWh  -0.60 kWh

 

The observation for 75 F was the reverse commute from work to home.  There is an altitude change of 19 meters during the commute, downhilll to work and uphill back home.  The difference in the gravitational potential is around 0.1 kWh.  Thus it should take at least 0.2 kWh more energy to go home than to go to work.   Taking this into account, the energy consumed for the commutes at 57 F and 75 F were very similar.  Of course wind and traffic will affect the results. 

 

I have plotted MPGe vs. temperature for my commutes to work.  I get the maximum MPGe at 68 F, which is roughly in the middle of 57F and 75F. 

Edited May 21, 2014 at 11:39 PM by larryh

[larryh]

Today I monitored the Grille Shutters.  Normally, when I have monitored them in the past, they have been completely closed.  Today, they opened up to 94% after the engine coolant temperature reached 180 F.  It was 85 F outside.  They closed again while driving the final half mile to my home in EV mode--it looks like when EV+ mode turned on.  I will have to monitor them in the Winter.  But hopefully, they remain closed when it is cold outside. 

 

The HVB temperature reached 100 F today.

 

I used the AC for 40 minutes during the trip set to 78 F.  It used 1.04 kWh of electricity.   Most of the time it used about 1.4 kW of power.  That amounts to about 0.11 gallons of gas (assuming the ICE is 35% efficient and the motor is 80% efficient in generating electricity) or a 16% reduction in MPG. 

Edited May 26, 2014 at 10:43 PM by larryh

[larryh]

The HVB temp doesn't fall very fast.  I charged the HVB from 1:30 am to 3:30 am this morning.  The HVB temperature is now 90 F.  Its only down 10 F from yesterday afternoon.

Edited May 27, 2014 at 09:43 AM by larryh

[Hybridbear]

Today I monitored the Grille Shutters.  Normally, when I have monitored them in the past, they have been completely closed.  Today, they opened up to 94% after the engine coolant temperature reached 180 F.  It was 85 F outside.  They closed again while driving the final half mile to my home in EV mode--it looks like when EV+ mode turned on.  I will have to monitor them in the Winter.  But hopefully, they remain closed when it is cold outside. 

 

The HVB temperature reached 100 F today.

 

I used the AC for 40 minutes during the trip set to 78 F.  It used 1.04 kWh of electricity.   Most of the time it used about 1.4 kW of power.  That amounts to about 0.11 gallons of gas (assuming the ICE is 35% efficient and the motor is 80% efficient in generating electricity) or a 16% reduction in MPG. 

Was your AC on when you were measuring this? Turning on the AC causes the shutters to open even if the ICE is cold. This is done presumably to get maximum airflow to the AC unit. I have not seen my shutters open until the coolant temp exceeds 200F with AC off. With AC on the shutters open immediately, even with coolant temps of only 100F after the car has been sitting for many hours.

[larryh]

Yes--the grilles opened when I turned on the AC.  They closed about a minute after I turned off the AC.

[Hybridbear]

Yesterday morning while driving to Wausau with the outside temp in the low 40s I was able to turn on the heat as needed and the car just used the hot coolant from running the ICE on the freeway to give me heat. Today returning home the outside temp was about 45 and every time I tried to turn on a little heat the car would isolate the small coolant loop and run the electric heater. This would cause the coolant2 temp to drop from 185 (the temp of the overall ICE coolant loop) to about 130-140 while pulling about 1900 watts average load. While this loop was isolated the ICE loop would increase up to 190+F since less coolant was now circulating in that loop. As soon as I'd turn off the HVAC the system would stop separating the loops and return to overall 185F for the entire loop. 

 

Why in the world would the car behave this way? Doesn't it know to use the hot coolant from the ICE when it's on? 

 

The only difference I can think of is that when I left home on Wednesday I had plugged in the block heater overnight so the coolant was already hot before the ICE turned on the first time. This morning the coolant was under 40F to start the day and when I left work to come back to MN the heater loop was at about 140 from remote starting the car while the ICE loop was only about 45F (ambient temp). I did not turn on any heat until after the entire loop showed 180+F. Could the different starting temps have caused this? I did not shut the car off the entire trip home so I wasn't able to restart and test to see if that improved matters.

[larryh]

I have not noticed the car using the heater when the engine coolant is warm.  The only anomaly I have observed is running the heater and AC at the same time. 

[stevedebi]

I have not noticed the car using the heater when the engine coolant is warm.  The only anomaly I have observed is running the heater and AC at the same time. 

Heating and A/C would be standard if the defroster is running.

[larryh]

The defroster is not running. 

[Mike B]

As a future Fusion Energi owner, I found this thread very informative. I do have to ask though, What is the ICE, and what does it do?

[murphy]

As a future Fusion Energi owner, I found this thread very informative. I do have to ask though, What is the ICE, and what does it do?

Internal Combustion Engine

 

It burns gasoline and makes the car move when the HVB (High Voltage Battery) is discharged. ;)