Overall Expected Long Term Battery Life

[dlb92]

I got a call and they said they are charging me $100 to replace some door that isn't opening that is supposedly preventing the battery from charging all the way.  I'm pretty sure we all know this is not the case. I asked "so what happens when I come home and I'm still getting the same level of charge?" They said replacing this door will absolutely fix my battery. 

 

I got so irritated I called the electric vehicle customer service line.  They really did nothing but they checked with the dealership.  They said this is the proper repair.  I asked him what if it doesn't fix it and he said then you take it back.

 

When I pick up the car and the car is not charged when i get there (like usual) I'm going to ask them, "How do you know if your fix worked, you didn't even charge the battery to test it."  If it is charged I will tell them "I'm going to drive around the block and if I'm still getting 4.2kWh you will see me again in about 20 minutes."

Edited August 19, 2016 at 05:15 PM by dlb92

[bdginmo]

A door? Seriously? I'd be shocked if that has anything to do with it.

 

But speaking of the door...what do you think they are talking about? Is it part of the HVB cooling system?

[dlb92]

A door? Seriously? I'd be shocked if that has anything to do with it.

 

But speaking of the door...what do you think they are talking about? Is it part of the HVB cooling system?

 

Yes, the part that allows the battery to cool. They say it is not opening causing the battery to overheat and not charge fully.  They said it is not covered under the hybrid warranty.  Funny how a door required to cool a hybrid batttery is not covered.

 

Does anyone know how to get in touch with the representative here named Meagan?  I could really use some help with this.

Edited August 19, 2016 at 06:11 PM by dlb92

[larryh]

MyFordMobile.com logs HVB charging.  It indicates the SOC of the HVB after it has been charged.  You could show that to the dealer. 

[dlb92]

Funny thing is I gave them a copy of 2 weeks worth of myfordmobile records along with a printout of when I first got it.

 

They looked at it and arrogantly said "What is this? We don't use stuff you show us we use our own software." I told them this is information from Ford.  I explained to him that the battery was fully charging.  

 

When I called the electric vehicles representative I told them I don't think they are familiar enough with this car to know what they are doing and asked if he could get someone to help them.  I said its not like this was an overnight phenomenon.  I've watched the battery slowly degrade over the last 3 years.

 

I guess the good thing is when they replace this "door" I can say well it looks like your malfunctioning cooing system has done permanent damage to my battery, so please replace it.

 

MyFordMobile.com logs HVB charging.  It indicates the SOC of the HVB after it has been charged.  You could show that to the dealer. 

Edited August 19, 2016 at 10:51 PM by dlb92

[bdginmo]

Yes, the part that allows the battery to cool. They say it is not opening causing the battery to overheat and not charge fully.  They said it is not covered under the hybrid warranty.  Funny how a door required to cool a hybrid batttery is not covered.

 

Does anyone know how to get in touch with the representative here named Meagan?  I could really use some help with this.

 

It sounds like they don't understand what the problem is. Yes, if the door really is broken then it needs to be fixed. But fixing it isn't going to magically reverse the capacity loss. And what if the reduced air flow contributed to the capacity loss to begin with? That is a bad enough problem IMHO that the CEL should have come on at some point. Did they say if there were any HVB overheating codes stored in the computer?

[dlb92]

When they replace the battery I think I will keep the car for at least a year and then I'll probably trade it in because I don't want to go through this 4 or 5 times before the 150,000 mile warranty is up.

[dlb92]

Just to let everyone know the battery cost of $9,000+ is bs so don't think replacing the battery is costing Ford an arm and a leg.  Ford pays about $200/kwh ($1,500 per battery) as was published recently by GM.

 

If you have a defective battery (losing massive capacity) make them replace it.

 

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103667_electric-car-battery-costs-tesla-190-per-kwh-for-pack-gm-145-for-cells

 

Heres some other intersting news:  

 

GM has replaced ZERO batteries for battery degradation because there is no seen degradation in a Volt.  (The battery only uses 65% of its capacity to avoid any noticeable loss)

 

http://insideevs.com/zero-first-generation-chevrolet-volt-battery-packs-replaced-due-general-capacity-degradation/

Edited August 20, 2016 at 05:59 PM by dlb92

[Russael]

That's what the price of the battery is on Fordparts.  I just looked it up again, and it remains at $9,444.40.  If Ford is only paying 1500 bucks, then that's one monster of a mark-up.

[dlb92]

That's what the price of the battery is on Fordparts.  I just looked it up again, and it remains at $9,444.40.  If Ford is only paying 1500 bucks, then that's one monster of a mark-up.

It's like prescription medication, it costs me 50 cents but I charge you $80.

 

Everything is marked up.

 

This is how VW could afford to pay a 15 billion $ fine without sweating it.

 

http://www.hybridcars.com/gm-ev-battery-cells-down-to-145kwh-and-still-falling/

Edited August 20, 2016 at 06:17 PM by dlb92

[bdginmo]

When I enter my preferred dealer the price drops from $9444 to $8028 for the 2013 model year. For my 2015 model year the price is $6767.

[dlb92]

For anyone interested, the law firm that took care of the Nissan Leaf battery problem is looking to see if this is a viable case for them.  Contact me for details if you are having lots of battery degradation and I will forward you the info.

[JATR4]

My battery is showing signs of deterioration so I depleted it yesterday so I could fully charge it and measure the results with a Kill A Watt meter.  Had to use the OEM charger in order to measure the charge as the meter is for 120 volts only.

 

Full charge was 6.22 kwh but with the 72% charging efficiency of the OEM cable that translates to 4.48 kwh for a full charge.  Total charging time was only 4 hrs 41 minutes.  Seems very low.  21,324 miles.

 

Any comments?

Edited September 26, 2016 at 02:43 AM by JATR4

[dlb92]

How many miles do you have? 

[JATR4]

How many miles do you have? 

21,324

[bdginmo]

My battery is showing signs of deterioration so I depleted it yesterday so I could fully charge it and measure the results with a Kill A Watt meter.  Had to use the OEM charger in order to measure the charge as the meter is for 120 volts only.

 

Full charge was 6.22 kwh but with the 72% charging efficiency of the OEM cable that translates to 4.48 kwh for a full charge.  Total charging time was only 4 hrs 41 minutes.  Seems very low.  21,324 miles.

 

Any comments?

 

Can you describe your driving and charging habits? How many charge/discharge cycles have been done? When do you charge? Do you keep the HVB SoC high for long periods of time? Do you often use more than 2 bars of power output from the HVB while driving? How fast do you drive on the freeways in EV? Do you charge when the temperature is > 90F? What does the trip computer say is the kwh used from a full charge until it switches to hybrid mode?

Edited September 26, 2016 at 01:50 PM by bdginmo

[JATR4]

I drive the speed limit in town, 68 on the freeway.  No idea how many charge cycles but overall 143 mpg for the 21,000+ miles so mostly EV driving.  I usually charge after a trip since there is no value charging here.  Don't pay attention to the bars but not a speeder or accelerator.  I charge (240) when I need a charge.  I don't usually charge late at night.  Don't know the kwh used when switching to hybrid.

 

My current tank of gas is 300 mpg for 700+ miles.  Obviously mostly town driving at 45 mph.

 

I use the AC and heater when needed.  Have had two previous hybrids so am familiar with how to drive and brake for best performance.  I usually drive in LOW in town if the battery has a charge.

 

Even with the deterioration I don't have any complaints.  Fully charged battery usually 20-22 mile range.

Edited September 26, 2016 at 06:52 PM by JATR4

[dlb92]

So you've driven 21,000 miles and only show 20 mile range, what happens when you get 100,000 miles, you will have a 5 mile range?  This is my concern.  I have 32,500 and I'm at 4.0, it appears you have 4.48 at 21,000.

[JATR4]

So you've driven 21,000 miles and only show 20 mile range, what happens when you get 100,000 miles, you will have a 5 mile range?  This is my concern.  I have 32,500 and I'm at 4.0, it appears you have 4.48 at 21,000.

I expect Ford will replace the battery or there will be a class action suit that remedies the situation.

 

However, at current gas prices I am at the break-even point with respect to gas vs electricity.  I could survive.

[Vintre]

Hello All,

 

1st post!

 

I will be picking up my new 2017 Engeri on Monday and am excited!

 

I understand that a full charge will get me 22 miles.

 

My commute to work is 28 miles.

 

I live in Southern Ontario Canada where we have 4 distinct seasons.

 

Since my commute is longer than the battery capacity, I will be charging to 100 % and draining to 0% twice a day.

 

Am I in for a drastically shortened battery capacity because of this cylce?

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Sincerely,

 

Vin

[murphy]

0% on the electric drive portion of the battery leaves about 1.5 kW for the hybrid portion.  The car will not let the hybrid portion go to zero.  I have charged my car to 100% every time I have charged it.  It is now 3.5 years old and I still get 21 miles of electric operation when it is warm outside.  Cold weather reduces the capacity of the battery.  Using the heater puts a dent in the range.  You can avoid the heater caused range loss if you wear a warm coat, use the seat heater, and the steering wheel heater if you have it.  My 2013 does not have the steering wheel heater.

 

Use GO a time to warm the car up before you leave in the morning.  It must be plugged in to do that and a 240 volt EVSE must be used for it to be of much use. 

The "charger" that Ford supplies is properly called Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE).  The charger is built into the car.

 

120 volts times 12 amps = 1440 va.

240 volts times 16 amps = 3840 va.

If the power factor of the charger is close to 1, I have not measured it, then 3840 va is 3840 watts.

 

Get a 240 volt EVSE if at all possible.  It will charge the battery in slightly over two hours.  It takes over 5 hours with the 120 volt EVSE.

 

All of my trips are less than 20 miles.  My engine does not run at all in the summertime.

[Doc Rock]

Murphy,

 

I live in PA as well. How much of a drop off in range do you experience in the winter? I presume the drop off is related to the ambient temperature.

 

Also, does there come a "cold point" where switching to hybrid drive makes economic sense?

[murphy]

I am about 35 miles north of Philadelphia.  Once a week I drive to a destination that is 10.5 miles away.  In the Summer I can easily do the whole round trip all electric.  In the Winter I can do slightly more than half of the trip all electric.  Spring and Fall vary depending on the temperature.

 

I can't answer your second question since I don't pay for electricity.  I have 10 kW of PV solar panels on the roof of my house.  I haven't sent a payment to PECO since they were installed although it has been close when snow covers them for several days in a row.

 

According to the EPA there is 33.7 kWh in a gallon of gasoline.  Using the price of a kWh and the price of a gallon of gas it's probably possible to figure out a crossover point.  That would be nullified by needing a warm car for a baby.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent

[Doc Rock]

I am about 35 miles north of Philadelphia.  Once a week I drive to a destination that is 10.5 miles away.  In the Summer I can easily do the whole round trip all electric.  In the Winter I can do slightly more than half of the trip all electric.  Spring and Fall vary depending on the temperature.

 

I can't answer your second question since I don't pay for electricity.  I have 10 kW of PV solar panels on the roof of my house.  I haven't sent a payment to PECO since they were installed although it has been close when snow covers them for several days in a row.

 

According to the EPA there is 33.7 kWh in a gallon of gasoline.  Using the price of a kWh and the price of a gallon of gas it's probably possible to figure out a crossover point.  That would be nullified by needing a warm car for a baby.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent

Murphy,

 

Thanks. I'm about 25-30 miles north of you if you are in the Lansdale area. My weekday commute is less than 10 miles R/T.

 

Right now I'm paying about 3.5 cents per mile for electricity, and am very happy not to have spent a nickel on gas in PA.  My breakeven point (based on NJ/Virginia/Delaware gas prices) is about 4.5 - 5 cents a mile (when compared to the mileage I get in hybrid mode). I know both EV and hybrid mileage will drop off in colder weather. If it becomes a push in terms of cost, i'll probably go hybrid most of the time.

[murphy]

Murphy,

 

Thanks. I'm about 25-30 miles north of you if you are in the Lansdale area. My weekday commute is less than 10 miles R/T.

 

Right now I'm paying about 3.5 cents per mile for electricity, and am very happy not to have spent a nickel on gas in PA.  My breakeven point (based on NJ/Virginia/Delaware gas prices) is about 4.5 - 5 cents a mile (when compared to the mileage I get in hybrid mode). I know both EV and hybrid mileage will drop off in colder weather. If it becomes a push in terms of cost, i'll probably go hybrid most of the time.

I'm 1/2 mile from the Horsham Township Police, Township building, Community Center complex.

 

With a 10 mile R/T commute I would expect to be able to operate electric only unless it gets well below freezing.