Overall Expected Long Term Battery Life

[Spartyof83]

I am 10,000 miles into my Energi Titanium and love it! As someone who has always kept cars a very long time (7-10 years average) how long can I expect to get out of the EV/Hybrid Battery Pack? Will it like many batteries lose its efficiency over time and if so, how much? And although it will likely cost different than it does now, what is the realistic cost of this replacement? That's assuming it can even be done cost efficiently.

 

 

[murphy]

I am 10,000 miles into my Energi Titanium and love it! As someone who has always kept cars a very long time (7-10 years average) how long can I expect to get out of the EV/Hybrid Battery Pack? Will it like many batteries lose its efficiency over time and if so, how much? And although it will likely cost different than it does now, what is the realistic cost of this replacement? That's assuming it can even be done cost efficiently.

It has an 8 year / 100,000 mile warranty.  Ford says it is supposed to last the life of the car.  What percentage of the 10,000 miles is battery only?

[Russael]

The battery is warrantied as Murphy has indicated.  Like all batteries there will be an eventual loss of capacity.  I remember reading somewhere that they expect it to keep around 80% of it's original capacity at the 8 year mark which is quite reasonable.  I personally hope to get 10 - 12 out of it.  Also, individuals in cooler climates should have longer battery life as well.

 

Presently, the replacement battery pack for the Fusion Energi on Ford Parts is $9,444.  There is new battery tech in the works too, such as Li-S or Li-AIR.  I'm hoping by the time I need a pack replacement, one of those new packs will be available and be able to be fitted in to my car.  Current prospects of Li-S is about 4x the capacity of Li-ION, and Li-AIR is touted to have 5 to 15x the capacity.  Technology will march on. :)

[Depauwler]

The warranty does not cover normal wear and tear, which for the battery, includes the expected loss of capacity.

From http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/content/~WODFHY/~MUS~LEN/41/13hybwa2e.pdf page 11

(If the link doesn't work, you can access it from the owner.ford.com website.  2013 Ford Fusion Energi Owner's Manuals - Warranty Guide 2nd Printing)

 

Note: Lithium-Ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss

The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery) will experience gradual

capacity loss with time and use (similar to all lithium-ion batteries),

which is considered normal wear and tear. Loss of battery capacity

due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under

the New Vehicle Limited Warranty. See your Owner’s Manual for

important tips on how to maximize the life and capacity of the

Lithium-ion battery.

[shaggy314]

 

 

It has an 8 year / 100,000 mile warranty. Ford says it is supposed to last the life of the car. What percentage of the 10,000 miles is battery only?

Don't for get those eco freaks in CA get 150,000 on their battery, so I'm thinking it'll last better than the other 49 states' 100,000. So I'm encouraged we have a quality LiOn battery.

Reminder with LiOn battery iti is full charge cycles, ie. 4 x 25% charge ups = 100% charge cycle.

 

I too hope that come replacement time I go after market and get a higher capasity without blowing things up.

Edited September 23, 2013 at 08:20 PM by shaggy314

[Neil]

My last car was a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and I got 170,000 and 10 years out of the Hybrid battery.  That was a NIHM battery vs. LI-ION so not sure if the results are relevant.  Also, the battery had been going bad for about 1.5 years before I finally sold it ('CEL' light - 'IMA' in Honda terms).  My mileage only went down a little as it deteriorated  - I used to average 51 MPG, and when I sold it I was averaging about 47 mpg.  Replacement battery(after market) was only $2,000.  Easy job to do as well.

 

Looking at the placement of the Energi traction battery, it appears as though it will be a fairly easy DIY replacement, as long as you pay attention and understand how electricity works.  Not sure how the computer will react however.  I haven't looked that closely at it, however.  Hopefully I won't have to begin looking at things like that for another 8 years.  And if the price is still over $9,000 for the part .... problem solved.  I won't even think about it. 

[easyv]

One of the guys at the dealership, who formerly worked for Toyota, said that the hybrid taxi cabs over the last 6 years or so are seeing up to 300,000 miles on a battery pack. There is a thread somewhere on here that has a technical article on the batteries that mention expected life of the battery pack. 

[FusionDad]

I understand that Lithium Ion batteries tend to live longer if we charge them up as soon to use as we can.  This would mean basically using the car charging timer to prolong battery life by setting its START charging time so that the battery is full and stops charging right before a user (i.e. most of us) leaves for work in the morning.

 

We have two plug-in cars - the Fusion Energi and a 2012 Prius Plug-In.  I'l loooove to see new battery technology rapidly quadruple+ the battery's range, especially for the Prius Plug-In (12 - 14 miles of EV range in my experience).  Moreover, any car with really long EV range would automatically decrease its normal maintenance schedules, as most of maintenance items revolve around the internal combustion engine.  This is really the one non-obvious yearly hassle & yearly cost advantage of pure EV cars like the Nissan Leaf and the Tesla.  For those of us with a daily round-trip commute EV distance of less than 50 miles, the great majority of car maintenance costs would also evaporate.

[SD Diver]

Interesting point.  I have just over 1K miles on mine, and an 85% EV ratio.  So - do my oil change intervals change from the normal 3 months 3500 miles?  If I am only putting 100 ICE miles/month, I'll always be "time limited" vs "miles limited".  It will take me close to 3 years to reach 3500 ICE miles.  Now I now that on the Volt, it "tells" you when it needs an oil change.  Guess I'll have to crack open the owner's manual and see what it has to say...

[Griff]

Interesting point.  I have just over 1K miles on mine, and an 85% EV ratio.  So - do my oil change intervals change from the normal 3 months 3500 miles?  If I am only putting 100 ICE miles/month, I'll always be "time limited" vs "miles limited".  It will take me close to 3 years to reach 3500 ICE miles.  Now I now that on the Volt, it "tells" you when it needs an oil change.  Guess I'll have to crack open the owner's manual and see what it has to say...

Your oil will need to be changed every 2 years or 20,000 miles. The car will let you know when it is due if it is due sooner.

[lokicat]

LiON batteries have a finite number of times that they can recharge from being fully depleted. However, if the batteries are recharged at about 20% or higher remaining charge, that does not count towards the finite limit. This is why most iPhones will never need a battery replacement. I suspect Ford has built these batteries to maintain this level of charge even though the display says 0%.

 

I personally think, we will all be more likely to upgrade our battery once a higher capacity option is available from Ford or other 3rd party well before the original wears out.

[Marc]

Don't for get those eco freaks in CA get 150,000 on their battery, so I'm thinking it'll last better than the other 49 states' 100,000. So I'm encouraged we have a quality LiOn battery.

Reminder with LiOn battery iti is full charge cycles, ie. 4 x 25% charge ups = 100% charge cycle.

 

I too hope that come replacement time I go after market and get a higher capasity without blowing things up.

When I purchased my Energi my dealer told me that New York also qualified for the 10 year/150,000 warrantee on unique hybrid parts, but he couldn't find it in writing anywhere. Have you ever seen this in writing?

[murphy]

When I purchased my Energi my dealer told me that New York also qualified for the 10 year/150,000 warrantee on unique hybrid parts, but he couldn't find it in writing anywhere. Have you ever seen this in writing?

Your warantee term is on your window sticker.

[bjorn]

All the CARB states (all states using the California Air Resource Boards) rules has 10year/150,000 miles warranty on battery.

CARB states are California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, NewYork, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington.

 

Bjorn

[murphy]

All the CARB states (all states using the California Air Resource Boards) rules has 10year/150,000 miles warranty on battery.

CARB states are California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, NewYork, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington.

 

Bjorn

I live in Pennsylvania and my window sticker says 8 years 100,000 miles for the hybrid components.

[bjorn]

You're right, looking at the hybrid warranty booklet that came with the car, it says all the CARB states except for PA and WA are covered by the 10/150,000 rule.

[shaggy314]

LiON batteries have a finite number of times that they can recharge from being fully depleted. However, if the batteries are recharged at about 20% or higher remaining charge, that does not count towards the finite limit. This is why most iPhones will never need a battery replacement. I suspect Ford has built these batteries to maintain this level of charge even though the display says 0%.

 

I personally think, we will all be more likely to upgrade our battery once a higher capacity option is available from Ford or other 3rd party well before the original wears out.

 

This is *VERY* different from everything I've heard and read about LiOn batteries. They are not like older chemestries where they have a memory of charges, but complete cycles. For example: Going from 100% down to 75% and charging up is 25% charge cycle, do that 4 times and you have 1 complete charge cycle. Go from 100% to 50% twice, also, one charge cycle and the Ford software should keep track of that to determine the life of the battery pack. Now it gets confusing when you have cells that get balanced inside the the multi-cell battery packs we have, but it if you look at the individual cells it is true.

 

It isn't true iPhones won't ever need new batteries. Completely false. Apple's batteries lose capacity over time like all batteries of their type. It has a rating of so many complete charge cycles. It may be 1000, so even an unrealistic full charge per day is just under a 3 year smart phone lifespan. Battery replacements are cheap with third parties charging under $50.

 

I do agree with your last statement 100%. It will also depend on cycles too. I note that in a vast majority, Ford seems to have the more advanced system, but I note other manufacturers offer none 100% charging to extend the life of the battery Chevy or Nissan (I forget) let you set a max charge percent, recommending 80-90% and suggesting 100% only when needed.

[shaggy314]

3 years later... battery charges to full in around 90 minutes when it used to take around 130. Range is so much harder to figure with temperature and driving condition with such a short range. I asked Ford about the dropping capacity of the charge since it is so hard to monitor the kW put in or drawn out. Ford service only aid my battery was fine, with no mention of lost capacity, or what loss would constitute needing replacement. Even after I SPECIFICALLY asked these questions about the HVB, they ran a test on the 12 battery, then tried to charge me for the $20 battery service. SIGH.

 

I am VERY disappointed with them and understanding of the Hybrid system warranty.

[dlb92]

Mine is also 3 years old as of a week ago and it takes 95 minutes to charge the battery and I am only getting like 15 miles out of it (granted its hot and the AC has to work)  I used to get 30 miles.

[bdginmo]

shaggy314 and dlb92, after charging the car 100% what is the reported kwH used at the moment it switches to hybrid mode?

[dlb92]

3.9 to 4.1

[bdginmo]

3.9 to 4.1

 

Yeah, so that's about %75 of the original capacity assuming "original" is defined as a typical 5.4 kwH draw before hybrid mode. How many miles are on your vehicle? How often do you charge? What is the climate like where you live? Do you hold the HVB at a high SoC for long periods of time?

 

And yes, I too would be disappointed with that level of degradation unless it was with 100,000+ miles on the vehicle which I'm assuming you've not reach yet eh?

Edited August 16, 2016 at 01:44 AM by bdginmo

[dlb92]

I was getting more like 5.8 Kwh in the beginning. I have 32,000 miles on the car.  I drive it 5-6 times per week and recharge it normally once a day (occasionally twice a day).  I've done this for the last 3 years and nothing has changed.  I talked with a guy on the Cmax Energi forum who got his battery replaced who had the same level of degradation.  It's 14.6 miles to work and 14.6 back. I used to be able to get to work and back, now I can only go one way on the battery.

 

The first 6 months I could get 3,000 miles before refueling (30-33 miles per charge).  I drive the same pattern now and I can't even get 1000 (14-15 miles per charge).  I live in Florida so 3-4 months of 95 degree weather, the rest of the year its actually not too bad.

 

I haven't even had a second oil change. I only have 32,000 miles and my battery is already 1/3 dead.  If I knew this would happen so quickly I would never have bought the car. I guess next year I will only be getting 10 miles on the battery.  I made an appointment with the service center for Friday.

Edited August 16, 2016 at 03:11 AM by dlb92

[meyersnole]

Let us know how this goes dlb92.

[dlb92]

Will do. I dug out a screen shot from 2013 and I was getting 5.5kwh from the battery.