AVERAGE Range on a Full Charge

[rbort]

Honestly, and no offense, if you could say all the wrong things about how to take care of the battery, you just did.  Not only that, but really good luck with barking at Ford and having them replace your battery.  There are several people with degraded batteries (faster than normal due to treatment like you said above) and they are not getting far with Ford. 

 

I understand things age, but it does make a difference how you treat the battery.  Was just trying to help you make it last longer.

 

-=>Raja.

[shaggy314]

3.5 years and ~51,000 I'm down to 15 or so miles a charge going into winter.

 

That said, I've only been treating my battery correctly for the last 2. The first year I charged to 100% as soon as I got home and to work. No thanks to Ford (not giving us any advice on it), I've discovered from other EV forums, that if I charge to 100% (which is all the time), I should do it as close to usage time as possible. Got this info from Leaf and Tesla forums.

 

I read a paper on LiOn battery longevity and found that sitting 0% or 100% will shorten lifespan, as does charging while warm/hot (so delay & let it cool if possible).)

[meyersnole]

At just over 46,000 @ 50 degrees my predicted range is around 23/24... but I don't think the predicted range is that accurate as I typically don't travel that far to verify. One of the reasons I say that is a mile down the road I have lost 2 miles off the predicted range, and the majority of my trips are very short. My predicted range was as high as low 30s (when I just used battery) when the car was new.

 

Love getting around 40 mpg (as high as upper 40s if not going too fast or hit a lot of traffic) scooting down 95, with the car loaded down, on my road trips. Road trips are the only time I buy gas. When I am local I rarely go far enough to turn the engine on and when I do it is fractions of a gallon of gas.  

[oholem]

Sadly trading in car at 31000 miles since EV range down to 11 miles and Ford will not acknowledge there is a problem. The warranty is not honored on an EV battery with 50% loss in range! It only cost $12,000 to feel "green" for 3 years. This is close to a scam...
 

I'll admit to becoming obsessive about keeping the three bars on the coaching screen as close to 100% as possible. I've also figured out that gently pressing the brake pedal on downhill driving segments (particularly when you're going to have to stop at the bottom anyway) seems to generate a lot of energy because my estimated range often goes up a mile when I do it. The result is that the estimate of my range on a full charge keeps creeping up and has now reached 28 miles. This seems to track with the actual distances I get in around town driving (the only driving I've done since I got the car). I'm wondering what others are experiencing and if AVERAGE estimated range can go still higher so I've posted this poll to find out.

Edited December 30, 2016 at 12:53 PM by jeff_h

[JATR4]

Sadly trading in car at 31000 miles since EV range down to 11 miles and Ford will not acknowledge there is a problem. The warranty is not honored on an EV battery with 50% loss in range! It only cost $12,000 to feel "green" for 3 years. This is close to a scam...

 

I'll admit to becoming obsessive about keeping the three bars on the coaching screen as close to 100% as possible. I've also figured out that gently pressing the brake pedal on downhill driving segments (particularly when you're going to have to stop at the bottom anyway) seems to generate a lot of energy because my estimated range often goes up a mile when I do it. The result is that the estimate of my range on a full charge keeps creeping up and has now reached 28 miles. This seems to track with the actual distances I get in around town driving (the only driving I've done since I got the car). I'm wondering what others are experiencing and if AVERAGE estimated range can go still higher so I've posted this poll to find out.

 

 

So it's 11.  How fast do you drive.  Is the AC on?  What mpg do you get in hybrid mode?

Edited December 30, 2016 at 04:57 PM by JATR4

[openair]

Which is it?  11 or 28?

 

11.  The second paragraph is a broken quote from the op.  Hence the

.

 

 

Jeff_H: I revised the post above so it should be good now.

Edited December 30, 2016 at 12:54 PM by jeff_h

[Pg3ibew]

My Energi is brand new. 2200 miles on it. 

I can unequivocally tell you that here in NYC, weather wreaks havoc on the EV mileage range. When temps drop, 30 and below, the mileage range will dip to as low as 17 miles.  Temps go above 40 and the range will go to 23 miles.

 

And this is full charge. Once I get in and turn on the heat or heated seats, the range can drop pretty fast. 

[jsamp]

I voted 22 miles but my commute is mostly 65mph.  Around town I can get well over 25, but those are rare days when I'm just puttering around town.

[muzicman61]

I went with 27 but I'm sure that will change in the winter. My wife says I drive like an old grandma. :)

 

My commute is about 100 miles round trip each day at 70-75mph for 80% of the drive.

[mrbigh]

My Energi is brand new. 2200 miles on it. 

I can unequivocally tell you that here in NYC, weather wreaks havoc on the EV mileage range. When temps drop, 30 and below, the mileage range will dip to as low as 17 miles.  Temps go above 40 and the range will go to 23 miles.

 

And this is full charge. Once I get in and turn on the heat or heated seats, the range can drop pretty fast. 

I agree. My 2013 with 42000 miles is providing me with no more than 14 electric miles in warmer temperature. Past winter the recharge showed 11 but rapidly drop with the seat heater and 69 degrees internal cabin. Still, I can drive almost free during my work commute.

[bdginmo]

I went with 27 but I'm sure that will change in the winter. My wife says I drive like an old grandma. :)

 

My commute is about 100 miles round trip each day at 70-75mph for 80% of the drive.

 

Oh, it'll tank for sure especially if you use the heater.  Don't be alarmed if you only get 10 miles with heater use.  But, even if you don't use the heater it'll still drop quite a bit.

[My14Energi]

Do riddle me this.....with all this talk of proper/improper charging, proper driving, battery degradation....why dont hybrid batteries experience the same issues with degradation? Whats the difference whether the battery pack is getting charged by a gasoline engine or a cord plugged into an outlet? Therefore a regular 'ol hybrid battery is in constant charge/discharge everytime the car is driven and most likely within a "hot" driving cycle. Arent people with regular hybrids getting long life out of their cars and batteries? With that said, 56045 miles on my car. I drive the car like its a .....car, i dont granny it. I plug it in when i get home daily, let it charge and sit until the next morning. My estimated range given was 20 miles this morning. I drive the same route day after day and the trip gauge shows the same mileage and EV miles as when i got the car. My average MPG has stayed consistant. Am i just lucky or is there really not a whole lot an individual driver can do to wear down the battery?

Edited November 28, 2017 at 01:55 PM by My14Energi

[murphy]

If Ford felt it was necessary to not fully charge the battery they would have provided a method to do that.  Instead, by default, the battery is always fully charged.  If the battery is not fully charged the 12 volt battery is never charged from the wall.  I've said this many times but apparently no one believes me.  A 100% charge on the car screen is NOT a 100% charge of the actual battery.  They selected a range within the actual battery capacity to operate the car.  It is designed to last for the life of the car.  If it gets past the infant mortality period it is unlikely there will be any future problems during the design life of the car.  I don't know what that is but I have never kept a car more than 10 years.

[Timewellspent]

Like My14Energi

 

I drive the car.  I drain the car from full to empty twice a day.  You talk about millage, but what is your battery getting for kWh?  I am happy with my car and millage I get, but the battery has definitely taken a hit from my driving habits.  I only get 4.3 kWh on a full charge now and when it was new it was over 5 kWh.  So there is something to be said about taken care of the battery if that is what matters to you.  To me, it doesn't as I still get 20 miles or so out of the full charge, but I did get close to 26 when new driving the same roads, same conditions etc.

[jsamp]

A great collection of posts all together addressing battery capacity.

Do riddle me this.....with all this talk of proper/improper charging, proper driving, battery degradation....why dont hybrid batteries experience the same issues with degradation? Whats the difference whether the battery pack is getting charged by a gasoline engine or a cord plugged into an outlet? Therefore a regular 'ol hybrid battery is in constant charge/discharge everytime the car is driven and most likely within a "hot" driving cycle. Arent people with regular hybrids getting long life out of their cars and batteries? With that said, 56045 miles on my car. I drive the car like its a .....car, i dont granny it. I plug it in when i get home daily, let it charge and sit until the next morning. My estimated range given was 20 miles this morning. I drive the same route day after day and the trip gauge shows the same mileage and EV miles as when i got the car. My average MPG has stayed consistant. Am i just lucky or is there really not a whole lot an individual driver can do to wear down the battery?

In regards to the riddle, the hybrid battery is charged/discharged much more conservatively, never going below 20% or above 80%.  The proof of this? a hybrid can only go <2miles max on battery alone where if you were to use the Energi for comparison you should be able to get 4+ miles.  Your 50k miles plugging in once a day is a moderate usage, tho using the A/C all the time makes it a little heavier.  Those charging twice a day (see Timewellspent below) are seeing more degradation.  So your results are middle of the road.  You're not getting 25+ miles per charge, but not 15 either.  I would be curious to know what kWh you get per charge rather than miles.

 

I've said this many times but apparently no one believes me.  A 100% charge on the car screen is NOT a 100% charge of the actual battery.  They selected a range within the actual battery capacity to operate the car.  It is designed to last for the life of the car.  If it gets past the infant mortality period it is unlikely there will be any future problems during the design life of the car.  I don't know what that is but I have never kept a car more than 10 years.

Yes, we heard you, and I fully understand that 100% is 100% of what Ford decided is available.  That said, the "life of the car" isn't really specified, nor is what is "acceptable degradation" during that life.  The hybrid components of the car are only warranted for 8 years/100k miles, so one could assume they feel that is the "life" of the car.  Is the battery still supposed to deliver 20 miles at 8 years? Obviously Ford doesn't think so as people who have had their degradation measured by Ford at over 30% are told "normal performance".  So yes, they expected 100% charging, but they won't warranty performance at 100% charging.

 

Like My14Energi

 

I drive the car.  I drain the car from full to empty twice a day.  You talk about millage, but what is your battery getting for kWh?  I am happy with my car and millage I get, but the battery has definitely taken a hit from my driving habits.  I only get 4.3 kWh on a full charge now and when it was new it was over 5 kWh.  So there is something to be said about taken care of the battery if that is what matters to you.  To me, it doesn't as I still get 20 miles or so out of the full charge, but I did get close to 26 when new driving the same roads, same conditions etc.

Well stated Timewellspent.  Yes, anyone can drive however they want, but there can be consequences to certain driving habits.  In your case, it is ~23% loss of battery capacity.  You consider that to be acceptable and that is fine, but at least you are aware that there are dangers.

[jj2me]

Why isn't this approximately true, that the full discharge-charge range for the FFEnergi seems to be about 13% - 93%+?

 

Rationale:

- 13%: This post says we can't go below 1.0 kWh. Dividing by the rated capacity of 7.6 kWh results in the 13% bottom.

- 93%: A newish battery (mine) that drives 5.5 kWh from 100% charged to entering hybrid mode gives a reading on PID "BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM" of 7.1 kWh.  Dividing by the rated capacity of 7.6 kWh results in the 93% top.

- + (the plus in 93%+): Perfectly new batteries may show more than 7.1 kWh for their "BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM" PID value.

 

Caveat: PID "BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM" is only an estimate.

 

That, along with jsamp's estimation of the Hybrid's more conservative 20% - 80%  discharge-charge range, jibes with My14Energi's observation that we don't hear of FFH battery degradation as much.

Edited November 29, 2017 at 11:40 PM by jj2me

[Fazdarx8]

my fusion is 88000 miles 2013, it claims about 16-17Miles, on the freeway at 60mph it does about 13. the battery constantly reads 3.8kwh for the discharge. 

 

 

the battery packs are made of 3.7volt cells all stacked together. they have temp sensors and they also do load balanced charging. 

 

I am thinking that ford is bad with their qc on each cell. and I bet these cells are dying, while others remain and operate fine. the pattern I am seeing is people quickly loose there capacity but eventually stabilize.

 

there is a company in taxes that takes Prius battery's apart, they check each cell, and take all the good ones and load balance them and make a refurbished battery pack.. 

the bad cells are dead. 

 

I hope in the future they will service the fusion, or there will be cell upgrade options. 

[ptjones]

"jsamp" "In regards to the riddle, the hybrid battery is charged/discharged much more conservatively, never going below 20% or above 80%.  The proof of this? a hybrid can only go <2miles max on battery alone where if you were to use the Energi for comparison you should be able to get 4+ miles."

 

The actual Hybrid SOC range is 32-65% using a ScanGaugeII which means I'm only using 1/3 of the HVB.   With 206K miles on my CMAX I'm getting as good as MPG's as I ever have. :) So the lost of capacity hasn't made a difference and I only notice it going down hill, my HVB charges up quicker and it will get up to 70.5% SOC now. :headscratch: Another thing with the Hybrid you are only using 38-53% SOC, above that EV will assist the ICE lowering the SOC and I have seen 113*F HVB temp a number of times which apparently isn't much of a problem when you are using only 38-53% SOC of the HVB. 

 

Paul

Edited August 14, 2018 at 10:05 PM by ptjones

[jsamp]

 

The actual Hybrid SOC range is 32-65% using a ScanGaugeII which means I'm only using 1/3 of the HVB.   With 206K miles on my CMAX I'm getting as good as MPG's as I ever have. :) So the lost of capacity hasn't made a difference and I only notice it going down hill, my HVB charges up quicker and it will get up to 70.5% SOC now. :headscratch: Another thing with the Hybrid you are only using 38-53% SOC, above that EV will assist the ICE lowering the SOC and I have seen 113*F HVB temp a number of times which apparently isn't much of a problem when you are using only 38-53% SOC of the HVB. 

 

Paul

 

Thanks for the info.  Yes, my 20-80% was approximate.  I had heard everything from 40-60 (escape hybrids) to 25-75 to 20-80.  Not having a hybrid myself I couldn't verify.  I knew only that the HVB on a hybrid is kept in a much smaller range than the energi's battery.  The only time a hybrid HVB is really taxed is when you mash the accelerator.  Not surprising that high temps affect hybrid batteries less if they are kept in a tighter range of SOC.  

[jsamp]

my fusion is 88000 miles 2013, it claims about 16-17Miles, on the freeway at 60mph it does about 13. the battery constantly reads 3.8kwh for the discharge. 

 

 

the battery packs are made of 3.7volt cells all stacked together. they have temp sensors and they also do load balanced charging. 

 

I am thinking that ford is bad with their qc on each cell. and I bet these cells are dying, while others remain and operate fine. the pattern I am seeing is people quickly loose there capacity but eventually stabilize.

 

there is a company in taxes that takes Prius battery's apart, they check each cell, and take all the good ones and load balance them and make a refurbished battery pack.. 

the bad cells are dead. 

 

I hope in the future they will service the fusion, or there will be cell upgrade options. 

 

These guys have them for the Fusion Hybrids, but not the energi (yet):

 

https://greentecauto.com/product-category/ford/fusion

[jsamp]

These guys have them for the Fusion Hybrids, but not the energi (yet):

 

https://greentecauto.com/product-category/ford/fusion

 

I just got a response from greentecauto... they are "working on" a version for the energi and are in a pilot program to figure out the mileage per charge on their new version.  No word on when it will be available.  I didn't ask if it was possible to be part of the pilot program, but I'm not currently in need of a replacement.  If you are, it might be worth asking. 

 

Based on their fusion hybrid battery prices, I'd bet an energi version would be north of $6000.

[Trades46]

2018 Energi driver here. Less than a week in and GoM is steady at 32 km (~20 mi). The Canadian cycle says the car should reach 34~35km and the avg. consumption of the gas range still reads ~500km which I know for sure is absurdly low (probably because the dealer was just moving it about). I'm not voting yet and see if I can squeeze more out of it.

[murphy]

What is the ambient temperature?  As it gets colder the battery efficiency goes down.  When it is below freezing I get about half of the range that is quoted for the car.  Using heat or air conditioning will also impact range.

[Gerald Deux]

Mine has been all over the place.  I purchased the vehicle in warm weather and the range was consistently 30 - 31.  However as SOON as it got cold outside (20's overnight, low 40's during the day), the range dropped to 25.  I am not sure why as I do not use the heater.  I only use the seat heater and steering wheel warmer (and wear gloves.)  The vehicle is garaged overnight.

[murphy]

Mine has been all over the place.  I purchased the vehicle in warm weather and the range was consistently 30 - 31.  However as SOON as it got cold outside (20's overnight, low 40's during the day), the range dropped to 25.  I am not sure why as I do not use the heater.  I only use the seat heater and steering wheel warmer (and wear gloves.)  The vehicle is garaged overnight.

The efficiency of the battery starts dropping when you get much below 70° F.  The further the temperature drops the lower the efficiency will be.  Tesla heats their batteries to partially overcome this problem.  The battery heating itself still results in reduced range.

 

When it is below freezing I get half the range I get in the summertime in my 2013 Energi.