My Fuel and Total Cost Comparison - Versus the Hybrid (considered) and Durango (Trade-in)

[TheGC1]

So after reading through the topics yesterday and being further encouraged by our actual fuel efficiency in the Energi, I worked up a little comparison between the Energi and the Hybrid (which we were considering), and also the Dodge Durango Citadel (which we traded in). Since we don't have many miles on the Energi yet, I used the EPA MPG ratings and ranges (seems as though many owners are exceeding the EPA numbers anyway).

 

I'm sure it's not precisely accurate, but it should be pretty close. Looks like we're saving quite a bit (obviously) from switching out of the Durango. And based on these numbers, it looks like we made the correct choice as far as going with the Energi, though it does have a smaller trunk.

 

Curious to get some feedback on my comparison's validity and wondering if I may have left any considerations out. Also, once I get the L2 charger installed, I'll work that into the cost, but since it came with the L1, it's valid at the moment in that regard. Once we start getting some miles under our belt, I'll put the actuals into the spreadsheet to true it up.

 

Sorry if the image below is hard, or too small to read... I couldn't directly paste my table in here, so I figured that an image would do the trick...

 

Edited September 11, 2013 at 06:14 PM by TheGC1

[jeff_h]

 I worked up a little comparison between the Energi (which we were considering) and the Dodge Durango Citadel (which we traded in).

 

I think you mean that you were considering the 'hybrid', right?  If so, EPA numbers on that model are 47.

 

And you mention the Dodge Durango but I don't see it noted on the image...

[TheGC1]

I think you mean that you were considering the 'hybrid', right?  If so, EPA numbers on that model are 47.

 

And you mention the Dodge Durango but I don't see it noted on the image...

 

Ahh, yes... Good catch.

 

Meant to say "I worked up a little comparison between the Energi and the Hybrid (which we were considering), and also the Dodge Durango Citadel (which we traded in)."

 

I only reference the Durango in the third section from the bottom "Usage based on daily charge and 15,000 miles". "Annual 15,000 mile Savings from Durango (trade in vehicle)", just a fuel savings really.

 

Thanks for the feedback...

[Griff]

Wait until you see your hybrid mode regularly passes 50mpg. Then you'll see some serious savings.

[dlb92]

Wait until you get a hybrid and realize you aren't getting 47mpg..

[Griff]

Wait until you get a hybrid and realize you aren't getting 47mpg..

I'm betting the low mpg numbers were because of the 62mph limit on the electric motor. Once they upgrade the software to 82mpg, like our Energis, they'll have improved numbers as well. 

[jeff_h]

Wait until you get a hybrid and realize you aren't getting 47mpg..

Or wait until you consistently get better numbers than that.  This morning's commute for me was a new high, 59 miles @ 57.7 MPG.... so while some are truly having issues that may be attributable to a real issue with their car, I think a larger number have not altered their driving styles toward the best MPG as their either don't know how, or don't want to.

[EnergiCCAATS]

I'm just curious, are all of you who consistently get over 50 mpg combined hybrid/electric for say a 60+ mile commute actually using any air conditioning?  I am still trying to justify the Energi purchase to my wife vs. Hybrid, and here in the deep south she will be using the a/c all the time for about 7 months out of the year.  Any guesses how much of a percentage to battery range using the a/c costs, or is it wildly varying?  I understand the benefit to "pre-conditioning" while plugged-in, but you can't just "turn the a/c off" and drive here in the south for most of the year.

[apm]

Hi EnergiCCAATS,

 

There is a thread on the Hybrid Forum about the Energi vs. the Hybrid. I posted the following number for comparison from a trip from Miami to Key Largo, or about 65 miles each way.

 

Trip: 62.7 miles Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 Completed 8:29 PM

Energy

3.8kWh

Total Amount Used

EV Miles

31.1 miles

Fuel Economy

52 MPGe

0.8 miles from Regen!

50% EV

 

Trip: 3.9 miles Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 Completed 6:16 PM

Energy

0.8kWh

Total Amount Used

EV Miles

2.7 miles

Fuel Econmy

52 MPGe

0.5 miles from Regen!

69% EV

 

Trip: 65.2 miles Saturday, Aug 17, 2013 Completed 3:35 PM

Energy

0.6kWh

Total Amount Used

EV Miles

24.9 miles

Fuel Economy

44 MPGe

1.2 miles from Regen!

38%EV

 

Note that the numbers beeing tracked are MPGe, not MPG. It was fairly hot during the entire trip, so the AC was on at about 73 degrees. I used less than 1/4 tank of gas for this whole round trip, plus the entire energy in the big battery (5.2kWh). 

 

I think this shows that even for longer commutes the Energi still makes sense.

 

Hope this helps in your decision!

 

Regards,

APM

[Eric4539]

Hi EnergiCCAATS,

 

I keep my AC on all the time because the air quality where I live is horrible.  Once in a while I will drive with the sunroof open when it's cooler.  Others on this forum are experts in this area but I can tell you what I have noticed.

 

A full charge usually shows 23 miles in my battery.  With the AC on the gauge in the dashboard shows 18 miles in the battery.  If I turn the AC off the battery will show 23 miles.  So the predicted range for me using the AC is less than if I drive without AC.  Also what I have noticed is that when I set the temperature at 72 I have less predicted range than if I set the temperature at 76.  Summers here can be brutal, over 100 degrees but very low humidity, so I try to keep the setting at 74 most times.  I bump up to 76 sometimes.

 

Even on longer drives you will also gain miles through brake regeneration so I still think the Energi is the way to go.

[Griff]

I'm just curious, are all of you who consistently get over 50 mpg combined hybrid/electric for say a 60+ mile commute actually using any air conditioning?  I am still trying to justify the Energi purchase to my wife vs. Hybrid, and here in the deep south she will be using the a/c all the time for about 7 months out of the year.  Any guesses how much of a percentage to battery range using the a/c costs, or is it wildly varying?  I understand the benefit to "pre-conditioning" while plugged-in, but you can't just "turn the a/c off" and drive here in the south for most of the year.

 I commute 40 miles. If I keep my car @ 60 mph or below on a highway, I find I can get anywhere from 55-62mpg. If I use the AC, I get 49-55 mpg. At 65mph, I get 50-55 mpg without A/C. 45-50 mpg with A/C. MPG and MPGe are interchangeable when you are in the hybrid mode and not using the electric battery. I have to admit that I get the best mileage when using adaptive cruise control. It does a much better job at maintaining an economical driving style than I seem to be able to pull off. This may be the case with many of the high mileage folks.

 

If I am in small town traffic ( occasional red light or stop sign, hills, etc.) I find the hybrid mode can be anywhere from 45-50mpg with or without AC.  The best hybrid mpg seems to be when on flat grounds and avoiding too much stop-n-go (no brainer).  

[EnergiCCAATS]

Thanks for the replies. This will be my wife's car and her commute is 3 days a week at 43 miles round trip with about 2/3 interstate. Then all other trips are in stop and go, hilly suburban area mom taxi trips. Most of the kids activities are in a 10-15 mile radius, so our hope was take kids, come back home, plug in to L2 charger, go get kids later, etc and really realize the benefits of the Energi over the Hybrid.

[Griff]

Thanks for the replies. This will be my wife's car and her commute is 3 days a week at 43 miles round trip with about 2/3 interstate. Then all other trips are in stop and go, hilly suburban area mom taxi trips. Most of the kids activities are in a 10-15 mile radius, so our hope was take kids, come back home, plug in to L2 charger, go get kids later, etc and really realize the benefits of the Energi over the Hybrid.

That's the perfect lifestyle for this car. Sounds to me like she'll hardly use much gas at all.

[EnergiCCAATS]

Thanks for the replies and sorry for the litany of questions, but I guess my main thought here was - does anyone have a feel for the main battery maximum "time" range say with a/c on (let's say at 74F) when "sitting in traffic"?  The reason I ask is that many of my wife's "mom-taxi" routes may be less than 10 miles one way, but sometimes can take up to 30 minutes to go that 10 miles due to heavy stop and go traffic (and she won't want to turn the a/c off). 

[murphy]

It's difficult to estimate because as the car cools down the A/C load drops. 

Use pre-conditioning while plugged in so the car starts out already cool.

The best approach is to enable recirculation so hot air isn't being continually introduced to the car.

[jeff_h]

Thanks for the replies and sorry for the litany of questions, but I guess my main thought here was - does anyone have a feel for the main battery maximum "time" range say with a/c on (let's say at 74F) when "sitting in traffic"?  The reason I ask is that many of my wife's "mom-taxi" routes may be less than 10 miles one way, but sometimes can take up to 30 minutes to go that 10 miles due to heavy stop and go traffic (and she won't want to turn the a/c off). 

 

Sounds like a lot of my wife's trips, and when running the AC the range normally drops from 21-24 down to 17-20 or so... but don't worry about that, it's not the end of the world if you do use a little gas.  Today was perfect example, we went to her doctor's appt which is 15 miles away -- so the round trip was 30.7 miles and using the hills (but not AC today, is in the 70s) to regen where possible, the ICE didn't run very much and the MPG for the trip was something like 463 MPG... so yeah I can definitely handle that, especially when her last car averaged 17 MPG.  And about the time range, if you go across town and stop in front of a place and the miles remaining is 15, and you sit there for 10-15 minutes waiting for kid to finish with gymnastics class etc, during that 10-15 minutes the AC will suck it down from 15 to 14 but I doubt it would also go down to 13 during the wait.  Others can chime in on their thoughts regarding this, but based on my experience this is the behavior our Energi exhibits.

 

But if you have a lot of mom-taxi runs, that also likely means you probably plenty of junk to lug around too.  So get a good look at the trunk on the Energi to make sure it will meet your needs.  However remember that the rear seats (one or both) fold down so you can load stuff there if the back seat is not full with people.  We have taken several trips to Lowes for bags of mulch and topsoil and used their complimentary thin plastic sheeting to go across the folded rear seats and the trunk, and have really loaded it up fully (was still less weight than 4-5 full size adults) and it has worked fine -- but be sure to give that an honest look and assess whether the trunk space will be feasible (probably will since the main well part is plenty deep enough for sports bags and such, but worth verifying).

Edited September 13, 2013 at 06:47 PM by jeff_h

[Eric4539]

My thought is this - If it is hot, let's say 90 degrees or above, if the car needs more power to maintain the cabin temperature, the engine will kick on no matter if you are sitting in traffic or driving 5 miles.  I don't think we have too much control over that.  It matters what temperature your wife sets the AC and the remaining predicted range in your battery.  The cooler she sets it I presume the engine may kick on when the battery gets low enough, but I don't know what that point is.

 

A good tip that murphy mentioned is using recirculation - I always use recirc and I can drive around town in the 100 degree days without the engine turning on, but my drives in town are usually no more than 10 miles round trip.

 

I know!  Test drive an Energi during the hottest time of the day and see what happens when you set the AC to 70 degrees and try to drain the battery....

 

And jeff_h has a good point about the trunk.  For many it was a deal breaker, but for me I didn't even give it a second thought.

[EnergiCCAATS]

Thanks for the good replies. Jeff H, very good analysis. That is very helpful.

[shaggy314]

I've got 4100 miles on my Energi. I've used about 1.75 tanks of gas. Since my work is right about 19 miles from home and about 50/50 city/freeway drive, I'm getting around 91 MPGe. This is central Texas so I've been using the A/C a lot. I concur that using A/c takes about 4 miles off the range.

 

Everytime I get to 92 MPGe, I have to go somewhere off battery and I get dropped to 88 or so. My hybrid mode runs 23 - 51 depending completely on how I drive 'her.' 43 MPG is a reasonable expectation in hybrid mode for me so far. When I go full 'Pius driver mode,' I can get it above 50 MPG. :-)

[EnergiCCAATS]

Ok, final question (I hope).  When analyzing potential usage of a FFE (if we purchase instead of the FFH), my wife and I have determined that we (mainly she) will do ALOT of taking one child somewhere, dropping off then coming back to the house and plugging in to a L2 charger for 30 mins to an hour (sometimes longer), then off again to take another child somewhere else, pick up, make a grocery run, etc several times a day.  Do many of you do alot of this?  Will multiple "re-charges" during one day, but maybe not being plugged in long enough to fully charge many of those times cause issues, shorten battery life, etc?  I know this is a big "hypothetical" for down the road, but I also know how we've always been told to fully deplete our mobile device batteries fully, then re-charge fully in order to lengthen life and also to not hamper realized capacity due to multiple "short charges", etc.

Edited September 17, 2013 at 07:24 PM by EnergiCCAATS

[Russael]

Actually, the batteries are happier to not have a 'full' recharge (I think the Ford system only actually charges the pack to something like 90%).  The car is no different than a cell phone, so yeah, you can plug in as many times per day as you want, and unplug even when you're not fully charged.  That's a huge reason I went with an L2 - just in case I had to make multiple runs in one day, I could stay on battery power since it charges so much quicker.

[murphy]

That will not hurt the HVB.  The charging is computer controlled. 

 

However the statement about fully discharging a mobile device battery has not been true since the days of ni-cad batteries.  The quickest way to kill a Li-Ion battery is to completely discharge it.  They should be recharged whenever it is convenient. 

 

The HVB can go to zero.  However at that point the Hybrid part of the car's Li-Ion battery is still at 1.1 kW.  The computer in the car will not let that part of the HVB go below 25% SOC.  If it get's that low the ICE is started to charge it up.

[EnergiCCAATS]

That will not hurt the HVB.  The charging is computer controlled. 

 

However the statement about fully discharging a mobile device battery has not been true since the days of ni-cad batteries.  The quickest way to kill a Li-Ion battery is to completely discharge it.  They should be recharged whenever it is convenient. 

 

The HVB can go to zero.  However at that point the Hybrid part of the car's Li-Ion battery is still at 1.1 kW.  The computer in the car will not let that part of the HVB go below 25% SOC.  If it get's that low the ICE is started to charge it up.

 

Thanks for setting me straight on the ni-cad battery worries.  I figured this car had smart enough computer management to take care of the battery regardless of usage, but thought I would ask.  Now, just to get my wife to decide on a color, so I can try to make a deal on a remaining 2013 (she is bummed because she wanted light blue, like the old frosted glass color, but she doesn't like ice storm as she says it's too green). 

Edited September 17, 2013 at 08:03 PM by EnergiCCAATS

[apm]

Ok, final question (I hope).  When analyzing potential usage of a FFE (if we purchase instead of the FFH), my wife and I have determined that we (mainly she) will do ALOT of taking one child somewhere, dropping off then coming back to the house and plugging in to a L2 charger for 30 mins to an hour (sometimes longer), then off again to take another child somewhere else, pick up, make a grocery run, etc several times a day.  Do many of you do alot of this?  Will multiple "re-charges" during one day, but maybe not being plugged in long enough to fully charge many of those times cause issues, shorten battery life, etc?  I know this is a big "hypothetical" for down the road, but I also know how we've always been told to fully deplete our mobile device batteries fully, then re-charge fully in order to lengthen life and also to not hamper realized capacity due to multiple "short charges", etc.

Hi EnergiCCAATS,

 

This is pretty much my daily routine (but with only 2 kids). I work from home, and I only use the L1 charger that came with the car. At 5;20PM I take kid #1 to ballet about 3 miles away from my house and come back. Usually I don't have much time to charge, maybe 10 or 15, but I always connect it when I get back. At 5:50 I have to take kid #2 to soccer at about 2 miles in the opposite direction. From there I head to the gym about 4 miles away and then back home about 2 miles away. With this routine, I don't use any gas during the week and I usualy have about 20 to 30% charge remining in the car at the end of the day. Of course I charge everynight, so during a normal day, the car is connected to charger much longer than it is no connected and so far (almost 6 months of ownership) I have only see improvements in the range of the battery. The last time I went to the gas station was almost 2 months ago!

 

Hope this helps!

 

Regards,

APM

[EnergiCCAATS]

Thanks APM, I'm just about sold now on the practicality of the FFE for our needs.  Just ready to pull the trigger and get a decent deal on a '13.