mczajka Posted August 18, 2013 at 10:46 PM Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 at 10:46 PM 2-3 people with the problem on this forum, but there could be others that have no interest in forums like this. As far as my driving habits, I commute 22.5 miles to work one way, so it's usually battery to work and ICE home. I do this every other week. So, the car was sitting in my garage without problems earlier this year for a few days (unplugged). Andre07 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre07 Posted August 18, 2013 at 11:49 PM Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 at 11:49 PM (edited) I was looking around the Net to see if other Ford Energi and Hybrid users were experiencing problems with low or dead 12 Volt Batteries and it does seem to be the case since Ford has decided to release a TSB to try to address this issue. I found this posted by cemax71 at fordcmaxhybridforum TSB 13-5-1, HYBRID AND ENERGI - 12VOLT BATTERY UNABLE TO HOLD CHARGE - CHARGING IMPROVEMENTSTSB issued May 2, 2013 to address charging the 12 volt battery.There is no manufacture cut-off date so this could apply to all vechicles in the field as of today's date.ISSUE:Some 2013 C-Max, Fusion Hybrid, Fusion Energi and MKZ Hybrid vehicles may exhibit a 12 volt battery which is unable to maintain a charge or becomes discharged when the vehicle is operated with maximum electrical loads for short drive cycles and then left unattended for several hours.ACTION:Reprogram the Direct Current/Direct Current (DC/DC) Converter Control Module to the latest calibration using IDS release 84.02 and higher.Link to TSBLooks like the TSB has been superseded for Cold Weather Conditions. I wonder how they could do this since these Vehicles have not seen a Winter yet. Edited August 19, 2013 at 12:13 AM by Andre07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy Posted August 19, 2013 at 12:37 AM Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 at 12:37 AM I had TSB 13-5-1 applied while it was still a valid TSB. It had no effect on the problem. I did not expect it to. The problem is not a charging problem. The problem is a 12 volt battery that is way too small for the demands the car puts on it when the car is not driven on a daily basis. Andre07 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre07 Posted August 19, 2013 at 12:47 AM Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 at 12:47 AM (edited) I had TSB 13-5-1 applied while it was still a valid TSB. It had no effect on the problem. I did not expect it to. The problem is not a charging problem. The problem is a 12 volt battery that is way too small for the demands the car puts on it when the car is not driven on a daily basis.I agree that the Battery is too small, from what I have been reading and from your reports. I posted this info to let others know that this issue is being reported by other Energi users, not only Fusion but Cmax and Lincoln as well. Yet others are not experiencing the Dead Battery situation. If the instantaneous Voltage and Current of the 12V Battery were possible to be displayed on the Screen when it was required it would be so much easier to Diagnose this problem cause I believe the Ford Techs are scratching their Heads as well on this issue Edited August 19, 2013 at 02:09 AM by Andre07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Energized Posted August 19, 2013 at 02:14 AM Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 at 02:14 AM The problem is a 12 volt battery that is way too small for the demands the car puts on it when the car is not driven on a daily basis. I would respectfully disagree with that conclusion. If the car had to be charged every day, we would see a lot more instances than have been posted here. If something is draining the battery excessively then having a larger battery would not fix the problem, it would only mask the issue by extending the time until the battery is dead. If the battery needs to be charged every day then having a battery with twice the reserve capacity would mean the battery needs to be charged every other day. That is not an acceptable solution in my opinion. dlb92 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mczajka Posted August 19, 2013 at 01:03 PM Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 at 01:03 PM I agree Energized. I also don't think a trickle charger is going to solve my particular problem. I've had all the updates applied and they didn't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusionEnergi Posted August 19, 2013 at 09:04 PM Report Share Posted August 19, 2013 at 09:04 PM (edited) I let the car sit unplugged for 10 days. The Energi started up with no problem. I did not get the TSB updated till after I returned from vacation. Edited August 19, 2013 at 09:05 PM by FusionEnergi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mczajka Posted August 20, 2013 at 11:34 AM Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 11:34 AM My build date was 2-15-13, about a month before yours. Not that it means anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russael Posted August 20, 2013 at 12:04 PM Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 at 12:04 PM I noticed my car 'phoned home' yesterday sometime around noon. Don't know why. When I leave it plugged in, it never did that before. It'll be interesting to see if it does it again today. I just sign in to MyFord Mobile but I do not have it set to auto update and I didn't update yesterday either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX NRG Posted August 21, 2013 at 06:09 AM Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 06:09 AM My build date was 2-15-13, about a month before yours. Not that it means anything.Yours probably received one of the "bad" batteries made late last year. It also likely has some underlying battery drain fault or short problem that they haven't been able to isolate yet in the FFHs and FFEs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mczajka Posted August 21, 2013 at 03:24 PM Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 03:24 PM Here's the latest on my particular issue: Good morning!Good news—we’ve made some progress with your car. After communicating with an engineer at Ford we were advised to check several things. During those tests we found a in car temperature sensor (for the battery pack) reading in excess of 400 degrees—this is a part of the DC to DC converter (the sensor is built into that as far as we can tell). We’re working with Ford to get this part here.I’ll update you again this afternoon. Thanks,Natalie Andre07 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre07 Posted August 21, 2013 at 05:54 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 05:54 PM Here's the latest on my particular issue: Good morning!Good news—we’ve made some progress with your car. After communicating with an engineer at Ford we were advised to check several things. During those tests we found a in car temperature sensor (for the battery pack) reading in excess of 400 degrees—this is a part of the DC to DC converter (the sensor is built into that as far as we can tell). We’re working with Ford to get this part here.I’ll update you again this afternoon. Thanks,NatalieThat is a great start. Sounds like the Sensor may have failed. By default a component designed to control a device will fail in the position to protect the equipment. In this case to have the fans run to try to coll the Battery that is being sensed as 400'F Too bad there is no Service mode on the MyFordTouch Screens. This fault should have been detected when they ran a Diagnostics, I guess everyone including the Service Techs have some learning to be done. At least they found something that was out of the Norm, so far. Keeps us updated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardbc Posted August 21, 2013 at 06:10 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 06:10 PM Thanks for keeping us updated. Very much appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russael Posted August 21, 2013 at 06:16 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 06:16 PM If that sensor was for the DC to DC converter, perhaps the converter was never in operation (and shut down to 'overheating') and you were running your car solely on the 12v battery for long periods of time? Either way, hope that sensor replacement works. I don't understand how something that glaringly wrong doesn't just immediately show up in diagnostics, or pop a warning on the dashboard, etc. 400 degrees? The car should've been flipping out since that's obviously way out of tolerance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaggy314 Posted August 21, 2013 at 07:04 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 07:04 PM Yeah, I think I'd want my car to alert me... "hey, dude, you're um, sitting on a 400 degree battery, might explode, might not, just sayin'" Andre07 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted August 21, 2013 at 09:41 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 at 09:41 PM (edited) The car should detect anomalous readings and record them for later diagnosis. The car tracks 100's of DTC faults via the OBD II system, which I think you can read via Engineering Test Mode. A high battery temperature would be a very important fault to record. Edited August 21, 2013 at 09:41 PM by larryh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX NRG Posted August 22, 2013 at 05:33 AM Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 at 05:33 AM Here's the latest on my particular issue: Good morning!Good news—we’ve made some progress with your car. After communicating with an engineer at Ford we were advised to check several things. During those tests we found a in car temperature sensor (for the battery pack) reading in excess of 400 degrees—this is a part of the DC to DC converter (the sensor is built into that as far as we can tell). We’re working with Ford to get this part here.I’ll update you again this afternoon. Thanks,NatalieGlad they appear to be making progress on why the fans always run down your battery. I'm interested in finding if this is the main battery pack sensor on the right side of the pack (#1 in linked drawing) or if it is a sensor in the DC-DC converter on the left side (#4 in linked drawing). If it is #1, yours will be at least the 2nd one that had to be replaced that I've read about. http://ev.sae.org/article/11705 Andre07 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mczajka Posted August 22, 2013 at 02:56 PM Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 at 02:56 PM I will check. Another thing I would like to note is that the engine never had to come on because of this problem. I've heard other people in Phoenix say that over 100 degress (106) that the car could force the engine on, even in EV mode. I'm wondering if we're talking about a few different sensors here (according to the link) with this problem and perhaps there is another sensor in the DC-DC module. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hermans Posted August 22, 2013 at 07:42 PM Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 at 07:42 PM Just wanted to pass on my experience with the 12v battery. Ford admitts to getting a bad batch of 12v batteries, all manufactured in 9/2012. Ford was to take all of the batteries off the market, but I think they are still in car out there. My FFH and the same 12v battery experience others here have mentioned. The dealer replaced my battery and the problem continued about 4 weeks after replacement. The TSB came out during that time and they again replaced the 12v battery that had the same 9/2012 date code and applied the TSB. The TSB changed how and when the battery is charged and I have not had the problem since. I also have not had the issue with my MKZ hybrid, but then that was a 04/2013 build. TX NRG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russael Posted August 23, 2013 at 08:12 PM Report Share Posted August 23, 2013 at 08:12 PM Well, I let my car sit unplugged on Sunday up until today (Friday) since I had to go somewhere, and no problem at all in regards to a dead 12v battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mczajka Posted August 27, 2013 at 05:39 PM Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 at 05:39 PM I finally get to go pick up my car today (which I greatly miss). It sat over the weekend and yesterday with no problems. There was a short in one of the wires. Here are the details: They found the problem by wire tracing the fan circuit. Between Ford Engineering & a smart technician we’ve finally resolved this problem! Cause: Improper wire routing. Pinched in truck trim-repair the damaged section of wiring & reroute so that it cannot occur again. I have another trip this week, so I'll be able to give it a good test again. TX NRG and Andre07 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryh Posted August 27, 2013 at 05:47 PM Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 at 05:47 PM (edited) That's great news. It sure took a long time to diagnose the problem--but the car does have a lot of high tech. It was a such a simple repair. Edited August 27, 2013 at 05:50 PM by larryh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russael Posted August 27, 2013 at 06:16 PM Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 at 06:16 PM You did mention your fans were running a lot, especially after the car was turned off (and they shouldn't have been at that point). Glad they finally found and fixed that concern. Now go rack up some EV miles. :) Andre07 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre07 Posted August 27, 2013 at 06:42 PM Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 at 06:42 PM mczajka, glad to hear they found the issue. On a general note, diagnosing would have been so much easier if the Ford Engineers were to display the 12V Battery info in one of the Screens. It should not be very difficult to add a Meter on the screen for the Voltage and Current that the 12 V Battery is using since I believe there is a Shunt on the Battery Circuit now. They just need to take advantage of what is already there and display the info that the Computer is using now. The 12Volt Battery circuit is the heart of the Vehicle and I find it to be an unfortunate oversight that the Ford Engineers chose not to include a Meter to Show the Voltage and Current draw on the Screen yet chose to include a Rad Temperature Gauge. Wonder if there is an Oil Pressure Gauge, cause I would think that to be important as well. oh well, just hope someone from Ford is reading these Threads and passes the info on. Back to the topic, glad to hear they found what may have been causing your particular issue. Hope others get their issues resolved as well cause from what I have been reading there are quite a few ppl having dead Battery Issues on other Energi, Max and MKZ's TX NRG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mczajka Posted August 27, 2013 at 06:52 PM Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 at 06:52 PM (edited) Oh I will! I hope you all are attending a National Plug In Day event! www.pluginday.org Edited August 27, 2013 at 06:52 PM by mczajka Andre07 and FusionEnergi 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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