12 Volt battery died

[mczajka]

I guess there were a lot of communications between my dealer and Ford today and they wanted to keep my car through tomorrow. At least my free rental is a Kia Hybrid. The Ford's hybrid tech. and quietness is so much better than competitors.

[TX NRG]

Since your fan is running too often, even when the battery temp should be nowhere near the 115 deg threshold, I'm wondering if you have a faulty battery temperature sensor (S0BDM Module?). When you heard the fans, have you noticed the ICE come on due to system performance (aka battery temp) even when you have EV miles left? Also wondering if that water spill might have affected some battery components or the fans in your trunk.

[larryh]

Yes, that is at least one small consolation when having your car repaired.  You get to compare it to the competition.  When I had an improperly installed engine block heater replaced in my car, I was given a Toyota Camry rental car.   Although the Camry had better acceleration and felt lighter, the Energi was smoother, quieter and more refined--no engine vibration or noise and the suspension provided better isolation from the road.

Edited August 18, 2013 at 12:43 AM by larryh

[mczajka]

Good points TX NRG. I did tell the dealer about the water spill which was a slow leak from an air hole in a 2.5 gallon water bottle which was 1/2 full. Unless these components are directly under the air compressor kit, which collected most of the water, as well as the absorptive cover over the kit, not sure how that would happen. I've never removed the material covering the battery box. Is it not protected/sealed? 

[mczajka]

I found this document this morning which kind of pictures the area we are talking about: http://elvsolutions.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Fusion_MKZ_Energi%20Battery%20Removal_Final.pdf

 

It kinda looks like they've installed a lot of components into the area where a spare tire would go, perhaps in a standard Fusion. I guess if water could get down there, I would consider this a major design flaw, including the inability to open the trunk when the 12 volt battery is dead. Where do you haul liquids in your car? Do you now have to put all these things in the cabin? Really?

[howardbc]

Wow, all this is making me very nervous about taking a trip by myself. 3 hours, most of it on very deserted roads. I am not mechanically-inclined. I would just hope my cell phone got a signal so I could call for help. I will be taking the car into the Ford dealer to have it checked out before the trip. Obviously I should mention checking the 12v battery. Anything else? 

 

The car has performed flawlessly since I picked it up April 5th. I don't drive it every day and do leave it plugged in. 

[dlb92]

So this may be a dumb question but I'll ask it anyway. Why do these cars need a little 12V battery?

[Russael]

For Howardbc, I seriously don't think this is something you'll need to be concerned with.  So far, 2 people out of everybody has had issues with the 12v battery going dead.  There are many more here who haven't had a problem.  Unfortunately, mczajka is having repeated issues.  Unless you're experiencing the same symptoms such as the fans running after your car has been powered off (and not plugged in), you'll be fine.

 

As far as why the car needs a 12v battery, I'm thinking it is a safety issue.  When the car is off, they want that 300v battery to be isolated.

 

One other reason I can think of is that they don't want a parasitic drain on the Li-Ion battery.  If that thing goes completely dead, there needs to be a way to get the car going again.  The computer for the charging system runs on 12v, so if you can apply power to that, you should be able to get the HVB charger going again too.

[murphy]

So this may be a dumb question but I'll ask it anyway. Why do these cars need a little 12V battery?

They don't need a "little" 12 volt battery.  They need a "big" 12 volt battery.  The accessories run on 12 volts.  Imagine what a 300 volt headlight would cost and how dangerous it would make it to work on the car.  There is a significant load on the 12 volt battery at times while the car is turned off.  The data radio, that communicates with Ford, is always on.  I have measured an over 10 ampere spike (10 amps is the max for my meter) when requesting a status update via myfordmobile.  Doing a global window open has 5 motors running at the same time.

 

My battery is on the weak side but hasn't completely failed on me so far.  I have seen it as low as 11.1 volts when turning the car on which is way lower than it should ever be at.  I put a much larger battery in for a while but that was difficult to lock into place since it was too long for the battery tray.  It worked a lot better but it too started dropping in voltage if the car was not used for several days.  I didn't leave it in long because it was a "starter" battery which can be permanently damaged if allowed to be discharged.  The car needs a really "big" deep discharge battery IMHO.

[Russael]

I may have to retract my previous statement about not worrying about the battery.  Seems another person is now experiencing the 12v battery dying.  So that makes 3 now.  My car remains plugged in at all times, so I don't ever expect to see this concern.

 

Some other little things I do which MAY make a difference is that when I roll up or roll down the windows, I do it when the car is powered on.  I also don't use the automatic headlamps.  I turn them on and off manually, and make sure they're off before powering the car down.  I guess I kind of got in to that habit with my truck, but I never had a dead battery with that thing.  It was always something in the back of my mind though going, "I'm burning battery energy with automatic headlights and I don't need them.  Off they go!"

 

I suppose I can also try experimenting with my car.  Once it's fully charged, I'll just go out there and unplug the thing.  Since I'm working from the house, it can sit for 5 days untouched.  Plus I have my other vehicle available if it should give me issues.  I have a 1 amp 12v battery charger (a battery tender to be more specific), so I could always connect that up if it should quit on me.

[howardbc]

Last night when I got home and had turned the car off but not plugged it in yet, I noticed that the fan was still running in the trunk. I've never noticed it running in the trunk after being turned off before. I will be sure to mention this to the Ford service adviser when I take the car in for a pre-trip checkup next week.

 

Good tips about turning off accessories before turning off the car. I have often left the radio on after I turn the car off because I noticed that it would turn off as soon as I open the door to get out. But I will try to remember to turn it off before I turn the car off. 

 

My car has 2500 miles and has so far survived a brutal summer here but I will let everyone know what the checkup next week shows.

[Energized]

 There is a significant load on the 12 volt battery at times while the car is turned off.  The data radio, that communicates with Ford, is always on.  I have measured an over 10 ampere spike (10 amps is the max for my meter) when requesting a status update via myfordmobile.  Doing a global window open has 5 motors running at the same time.

 

 

 

The Energi's 3G data system is not always on per se, it's normally in a state of rest.  It's quiescent state is low until it is awakened.  A 10A measurement is not really a pertinent data point unless a time factor is included. 

 

Tesla is changing how their "My Tesla Mobile" system works so it's similar to the Energi's.  Telsa's current system is always on and contributes to a large vampire drain for that vehicle.  Their latest update will put the system into a rest state like the Energi but will require a longer time to get updates, 45 secs or so, just like our cars require.

[Energized]

Last night when I got home and had turned the car off but not plugged it in yet, I noticed that the fan was still running in the trunk. I've never noticed it running in the trunk after being turned off before. I will be sure to mention this to the Ford service adviser when I take the car in for a pre-trip checkup next week.

 

Good tips about turning off accessories before turning off the car. I have often left the radio on after I turn the car off because I noticed that it would turn off as soon as I open the door to get out. But I will try to remember to turn it off before I turn the car off. 

 

My car has 2500 miles and has so far survived a brutal summer here but I will let everyone know what the checkup next week shows.

 

In a high temperature environment, I wouldn't be surprised if the fan ran for a short period of time after stopping, especially if the battery was recently used in a state of high regen or high drain . 

 

The batteries don't like to be in an environment greater than 130 degrees so running air over them for a short time after stopping would sound reasonable to me, similar to when an oven runs a fan to cool the electronics for several minutes after turning the oven off.    The issue would be if the fan never shuts off which would obviously drain the battery.

[mczajka]

I think there is a much bigger issue a foot here. It's been two days, and I had to call the dealer yesterday to get an update. They are still talking to Ford. Even someone higher up at my dealer commented to me about his son's Fusion Hybrid having a similar issue.

 

It's possible if you plug your car in every night, you won't have these issues. But when it got really hot and humid on the East Coast in July, there were some days I did not plug the car in because it was so hot in my garage, and it's never plugged in at my parking garage at work, which is exposed to the outside, but covered. Could these excessive heat days have caused a component to fail?

 

Stay tuned!

[mergy]

I am dealing with the same issue. Everything was fine for the first month or so, but I have had to use Ford roadside to jump the car because of the dead 12 volt 4 times now in the last 3 weeks. 

 

Heat is not an issue, I live in San Francisco. 

 

I towed it to the dealer once and they did upgrade the software and test the battery, but still an issue. 

[mergy]

I plug my Fusion Energi in every night (120) and still have had issues. 

[mczajka]

Sorry to hear, but glad others are coming out of the woodwork. When was your build date? They ran extensive tests on my battery for a week, then replaced it, but still problems.

 

Do your fans ever go on in traffic (when stopped) or when you power off the car?

Edited August 18, 2013 at 12:15 AM by mczajka

[murphy]

My car was built April 1 (April Fools Day).

I have never heard the fans when the car was turned off unless it was connected to the 240 volt charger and actively charging the battery.

I have never heard the fans while driving the car.  The active noise cancellation should mask that sound.

I always use air conditioning so there is plenty of cool air available for the HVB.

[howardbc]

How does one find out when their car was built? Thanks.

[dlb92]

Its on the sticker when you open the driver door inside the door frame

[TX NRG]

You can also look it up in ETIS, click on vehicle and enter your VIN. Build date is presented in dd-mm-yyyy format.

 

http://www.etis.ford.com/

[Griff]

Is this problem limited to people who rarely use the ICE and drive electric-only or does it encompass both types of drivers? In ICE vehicles, the alternator is what charges the 12volt battery. If the ICE never runs, perhaps the alternator never gets to charge the battery?

[dlb92]

The problem is limited so far to 2 or three people so its impossible to say.

[murphy]

Is this problem limited to people who rarely use the ICE and drive electric-only or does it encompass both types of drivers? In ICE vehicles, the alternator is what charges the 12volt battery. If the ICE never runs, perhaps the alternator never gets to charge the battery?

The Energi does not have an alternator.  The 12 volt battery is charged by a DC to DC converter running off of the HVB when the car is in run mode. 

 

I have used about 3 gallons of gasoline since April.  The overwhelming majority of my driving is electric only.  The car sometimes sits for several days without being used and not connected to the charger.  I have not had a failure to start but I see very low voltages from the battery when the car is turned on.

[Russael]

I've done all of my needed traveling for the week, so I charged up my car and unplugged it.  It'll get to sit for about 5 days in 85+ degree weather in a non-climate controlled garage.  Have to see what happens with it.  Unfortunately, I do not have a working multimeter to see its state of charge.

 

100% of my travels so far have been solely electric powered.

 

To echo what Murphy has said, the car does not have ANY belt driven accessories (there's no serpentine belt).  Thus, no alternator.  There is a 300v to 12v converter to run all of the 12 volt accessories which includes the instrument cluster, stereo, HVAC fan, radiator fan, cooling fans for the battery pack and charging system, lights, power windows, locks, and probably others I'm forgetting.  The HVB gets a charge from the traction motor which can both generate and use power once it drops below a certain threshold.