Fusion Energi vs Honda Accord Plug-in (HV charge mode)

[Gyrobob]

I am about to purchase a Fusion Energi, but I recently read a review comparing it to the Honda Accord plug-in hybrid. 
 -- The Fusion came out better overall, but the Honda did have one feature I like a LOT,.. an HV charge mode that will charge a depleted battery while cruising along. 
 -- So,... you could bop around in the morning on battery only and use it all up, then hop in the car for a trip, and a few hours later when you get to your destination, the battery would be charged up, allowing you to bop around town on the battery again.
 -- I realize this HV charge mode would use a little more gas, and seems to run counter to the reason for the plug-in charging, but in some circumstances, it would be handy to not have to wait to charge the thing up when you desired EV mode.

 

Does the Fusion Energi have anything like this?

If you deplete the battery, and the car then has to go to hybrid mode, is it impossible to get the battery charged back up unless you can plug the car in to a charging station?

 

Thanks for any info.

 

Edited July 8, 2013 at 06:05 PM by Gyrobob

[Russael]

The Fusion doesn't have anything like that, and honestly, I find a driving mode like that counter-intuitive.  I SUPPOSE it's like a 'super hybrid' mode where instead of cycling around 1.5kw of battery energy to and from the powertrain and cycling the engine on and off, it'll charge the whole thing and then allow you to run in EV again until it's depleted.  But again, I think charging your HV battery from the motor to full capacity is pointless... that's not saving you anything.

[rgb2]

I also found HV charge mode of Accord plugin appealing, but for a slightly different reason - it's basically a gas power generator. In case of a home power outage, you could charge up the battery and use it to power various devices. Heck, I haven't done any due diligence, but you might be able to even run some appliances ;)

[Gyrobob]

The Fusion doesn't have anything like that, and honestly, I find a driving mode like that counter-intuitive.  I SUPPOSE it's like a 'super hybrid' mode where instead of cycling around 1.5kw of battery energy to and from the powertrain and cycling the engine on and off, it'll charge the whole thing and then allow you to run in EV again until it's depleted.  But again, I think charging your HV battery from the motor to full capacity is pointless... that's not saving you anything.

 

Apparently you didn't read my post very completely.  In it I stated, "I realize this HV charge mode would use a little more gas, and seems to run counter to the reason for the plug-in charging,..."

 

I KNOW it isn't very efficient, but there are a few recurring situations for me where it will be very handy to use the battery for 20 miles around town, the hop in the car for a trip, drive 400 miles, then have 20 miles of battery mode available as soon as the 400 mile trip is complete..  It would be inconvenient to sit around waiting for the battery to get charged up,.. so,... I am willing to sacrifice some efficiency in this particular situation to be able to charge the thing while spending a few hours on the interstate.

 

 

 

[Gyrobob]

I also found HV charge mode of Accord plugin appealing, but for a slightly different reason - it's basically a gas power generator. In case of a home power outage, you could charge up the battery and use it to power various devices. Heck, I haven't done any due diligence, but you might be able to even run some appliances ;)

 

Excellent point.

[Russael]

 

Apparently you didn't read my post very completely.  In it I stated, "I realize this HV charge mode would use a little more gas, and seems to run counter to the reason for the plug-in charging,..."

 

I KNOW it isn't very efficient, but there are a few recurring situations for me where it will be very handy to use the battery for 20 miles around town, the hop in the car for a trip, drive 400 miles, then have 20 miles of battery mode available as soon as the 400 mile trip is complete..  It would be inconvenient to sit around waiting for the battery to get charged up,.. so,... I am willing to sacrifice some efficiency in this particular situation to be able to charge the thing while spending a few hours on the interstate.

 

 

 

Yeah, I did miss that.  However, I'm not seeing the benefit.  These cars were built to be efficiency machines.  I think it'd be cool if you could tell the car to just recapture energy not from the motor (such as braking, going downhill, etc) and storing that away during your trip, that might be more economical.  At least then you're driving on recaptured energy and not gasoline generated energy.

 

The Fusion has the EV later feature where it'll keep whatever energy you had stored away for later use and just run in hybrid mode, but if you're going 20 miles in EV, hitting the highway for 400, and then looking to go another 20 in EV mode at your destination, you'd run out of charge and be back in hybrid mode a few miles at your destination.  You'd need a Volt in this case since it has a battery double the size of the Fusion. :) 

 

The Fusion does have an integrated 120V plug, but that's only good for up to a 150 watt draw... basically enough to power a laptop.  Like the other plug-in counterparts, the Fusion's motor can generate electricity while sitting still and put it back in the battery pack, but they only designed it to go to a certain point and then stop.  Not sure if any automaker has thought about making the car a home backup generator.  Cool idea though.  The Fusion's 88kw traction motor could be large enough to power several houses. :)

[larryh]

I believe the EV range of the Honda is 13 miles.  The EV range of the Energi is 21 miles.  You should make sure that a 13 mile EV range is adequate for your commutes. 

Edited July 8, 2013 at 10:48 PM by larryh

[Rhyalus]

One thought here is that I don't think that the car *could* store enough energy to go beyond charging the "hybrid" portion of the battery.

 

In my experience, once I have depleted the EV, I usually float between 30% and 75% (or so) of the smaller battery capacity.  I would have to hear more about how the Honda would do this.

 

BTW, I had a terrible experience with Honda when I was EV shopping.  The local sales guys here knew nothing at all...

 

R

[larryh]

Reading about the different drive modes for the Honda from http://www.autoblog.com/2012/10/03/2014-honda-accord-plug-in-hybrid-first-drive-review/:

 

• EV Drive. Here, the only energy moving the car comes mostly from the battery. When starting with a full battery pack, the engine will not kick in under normal city driving until the pack is depleted, which should take 10-15 miles. When the driver requests "higher speeds or under high demand for acceleration," the gasoline engine will turn on "to provide additional power." This drive operation automatically comes on during deceleration. The official top speed in EV Drive is around 80 miles per hour and an electric A/C compressor and water heater allow the car to stay in EV mode longer.
• Hybrid Drive: This is where the Accord PHEV does its best Chevrolet Volt impression. The battery is still used, when there's juice, but mostly, Hybrid Drive only gets the engine running in order to send electricity straight to the 124-kW electric traction motor. The engine does not turn the wheels directly.
• Engine Drive: Now we're in standard internal combustion territory, because this is when the gasoline engine provides direct drive of the wheels. Battery? What battery?

So it appears the Honda doesn't turn into a hybrid when the battery is depleted.  It either does what the Chevrolet Volt does, uses the gas engine to generate electricity to power the electric motor, or uses the gas engine to drive the wheels without any help from the battery and electric motor the same as a traditional car.  The Honda has higher MPGe estimate of 115 and higher MPG of 46, compared to the Energi's 100 and 43.  I wonder how it actually compares in real world driving.  There should be two MPG ratings for the Honda, one for Hybrid Drive and one for Engine Drive.  Which one gets the better MPG?  I would think that it would be more efficient to drive the wheels directly with the engine rather than indirectly through the electric motor.  I wonder how much less efficient Hybrid Drive is than Engine Drive.  HV Charge mode probably relies on using Hybrid Drive.

 

I'm not sure that the above description is accurate for Engine Drive.  It must still recharge the battery through regenerative braking or by coasting.  Otherwise, that would be a big waste of energy.  So it just keeps charging the battery in Engine Drive via regenerative braking waiting for you to switch later to EV Drive or Hybrid Drive when the battery is full?

Edited July 9, 2013 at 09:56 AM by larryh

[Gyrobob]

I believe the EV range of the Honda is 13 miles.  The EV range of the Energi is 21 miles.  You should make sure that a 13 mile EV range is adequate for your commutes. 

 

That thought would apply if I were to get an Accord.  I'd much rather get a Fusion Energi.  I just wish it would charge the battery while droning down the interstate.  Maybe I could tow a trailer with a portable generator on it, and run the charging cord from the generator to the to charging socket!!

;-)

 

[Gyrobob]

One thought here is that I don't think that the car *could* store enough energy to go beyond charging the "hybrid" portion of the battery.

 

In my experience, once I have depleted the EV, I usually float between 30% and 75% (or so) of the smaller battery capacity.  I would have to hear more about how the Honda would do this.

 

BTW, I had a terrible experience with Honda when I was EV shopping.  The local sales guys here knew nothing at all...

 

R

The local sales guys in the Ford dealerships in my area (SW side of Atlanta) are clueless as well.  The one here in Newnan said something like, "Nah, we don't do none of that hybrid crap.   We just sell real cars and trucks.  It's all just a tree-hugger fad anyway."

Edited July 9, 2013 at 01:31 AM by Gyrobob

[Gyrobob]

Reading about the different drive modes for the Honda:

• EV Drive. Here, the only energy moving the car comes mostly from the battery. When starting with a full battery pack, the engine will not kick in under normal city driving until the pack is depleted, which should take 10-15 miles. When the driver requests "higher speeds or under high demand for acceleration," the gasoline engine will turn on "to provide additional power." This drive operation automatically comes on during deceleration. The official top speed in EV Drive is around 80 miles per hour and an electric A/C compressor and water heater allow the car to stay in EV mode longer.
• Hybrid Drive: This is where the Accord PHEV does its best Chevrolet Volt impression. The battery is still used, when there's juice, but mostly, Hybrid Drive only gets the engine running in order to send electricity straight to the 124-kW electric traction motor. The engine does not turn the wheels directly.
• Engine Drive: Now we're in standard internal combustion territory, because this is when the gasoline engine provides direct drive of the wheels. Battery? What battery?

 

 

Where did you get this description?  it doesn't align very well with the Consumer Reports description,.. especially concerning the HV Charge Mode.

[Gyrobob]

I believe the EV range of the Honda is 13 miles.  The EV range of the Energi is 21 miles.  You should make sure that a 13 mile EV range is adequate for your commutes. 

 

My commute is 32 miles one way.  Neither the Fusion Energi nor the Accord plug-in will give me EV commutes, eh?

 

Maybe I should get a Leaf.

 

Not.

 

 

[Griff]

My commute is 32 miles one way.  Neither the Fusion Energi nor the Accord plug-in will give me EV commutes, eh?

 

Maybe I should get a Leaf.

 

Not.

 

 

That's just under my one way commute.  I use the battery, then hybrid. Average total miles of electric is 27 (even though I start with 22 miles on the big battery). Overall mpg is between 150-170mpg, according to the summary after the trip is over.

[Rhyalus]

http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-plug-in/drive-system.aspx

 

From the website:

 

"If your daily commute is around 10 miles or less round trip, you could go to and from work each day without using a drop of gas. The Accord Plug-In has a [targeted] 10-mile all-electric range rating. Just recharge your vehicle each night, and you might be able to enjoy fuel-free weekdays."

 

But with a 10 mile battery, this MPGe garbage is meaningless....  I don't get it at all.  The gas engine gets 46 MPG...only 3 more than the Energi.  So for a mildly better MPG for gas and less capability on the EV, the Honda still gets a better "rating".  Tell me again why this number is good for the consumer?  :-)

 

From their website:

 

How about an all-electric commute? When your Accord Plug-In is in EV mode, you not only have a staggeringly efficient vehicle (rated at 115 MPGe combined[1]), but you can also drive up to 10 miles without using a drop of gas. And when you do use gasoline, the Accord Plug-In remains efficient with an impressive 46-mpg highway rating. Charge 'er up and fill 'er up, and you should find a total driving range in excess of 500 miles.

[1] 124 city/105 highway/115 combined miles per gallon of gasoline-equivalent (MPGe) electric rating; 47 city/46 highway/46 combined MPG gasoline only rating. 13 mile maximum EV mode driving range rating. 570 mile combined gas-electric driving range rating. Ratings determined by EPA. Use for comparison purposes only. Your MPGe/MPG and driving range will vary depending on driving conditions, how you drive and maintain your vehicle, battery age/condition, and other factors. For additional information about EPA ratings, visithttp://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/label/learn-more-PHEV-label.shtml.

 

R

Edited July 9, 2013 at 02:09 AM by Rhyalus

[Rhyalus]

The local sales guys in the Ford dealerships in my area (SW side of Atlanta) are clueless as well.  The one here in Newnan said something like, "Nah, we don't do none of that hybrid crap.   We just sell real cars and trucks.  It's all just a tree-hugger fad anyway."

 

You should report that moron.  Not only is he an ass, but I am guessing that he is not representing his company's perspective.

 

R

[Rhyalus]

BTW, one last thought for the night....  they only have three exterior colors (Silver, Black and White) and no leather interior options...

 

R

[Eric4539]

Check out this article/conversation..... http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083892_reader-q-2014-honda-accord-plug-in-hybrid-vs-other-hybrids

 

I found that discussion to be rather amusing.  Everyone is trying to convince this person which PHEV would be better for her.  She said, "I'll have to check out the Ford C-max Energi...i don't love how the Fusion looks...but honestly have not considered the Energi."

 

Alrighty then.  Looks are subjective.  

 

She really wants the Honda Accord PHEV but many were telling her the Volt would suit her commute needs better.  I suppose that is one of the reasons for purchasing one PHEV over another.  For me the Fusion Energi fits my use perfectly and I just happen to think it is one of the best looking cars out there.  The important thing is how does the car feel from the driver's seat?  If highest EV range is the most important then I say get the Tesla S!!   :)

[larryh]

Where did you get this description?  it doesn't align very well with the Consumer Reports description,.. especially concerning the HV Charge Mode.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/10/03/2014-honda-accord-plug-in-hybrid-first-drive-review/

 

Did consumer reports review plug-in hybrids recently?

 

According to Honda: 

 

There are modes and then there are Drives, and you shouldn't confuse one for the other.

 

The HV mode is similar to the Energi's EV later mode.  It attempts to preserve the state of charge of the battery at the current level.

 

You would have to drive the Energi down a large hill to recharge the battery to get a similar effect of the Honda's HV Charge mode.

Edited July 9, 2013 at 10:04 AM by larryh

[murphy]

This suggests an interesting test. 

 

The tallest mountain, that I am aware of, where you can drive to the top is Pikes Peak in Colorado.  I was up there about 48 years ago and my recollection of the sign is it is approximately 14100 feet above sea level.  The entry point is 7400 feet above sea level.  The drive is longer than that since the road curves around the mountain.

 

So starting at the top with a depleted HVB how many miles would be put into the battery on the way down?

 

I have seen my battery display switch from the hybrid display back to the HVB display as a result of regenerative braking but it never got above 0 miles.

[larryh]

BadRock already performed a similar experiment in:  http://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/1039-gas-mpg/

Edited July 9, 2013 at 10:53 AM by larryh

[Russael]

Check out this article/conversation..... http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083892_reader-q-2014-honda-accord-plug-in-hybrid-vs-other-hybrids

 

I found that discussion to be rather amusing.  Everyone is trying to convince this person which PHEV would be better for her.  She said, "I'll have to check out the Ford C-max Energi...i don't love how the Fusion looks...but honestly have not considered the Energi."

 

Alrighty then.  Looks are subjective.  

 

She really wants the Honda Accord PHEV but many were telling her the Volt would suit her commute needs better.  I suppose that is one of the reasons for purchasing one PHEV over another.  For me the Fusion Energi fits my use perfectly and I just happen to think it is one of the best looking cars out there.  The important thing is how does the car feel from the driver's seat?  If highest EV range is the most important then I say get the Tesla S!!   :)

She seems bound and determined to buy an import.  I know a few other people like that and don't understand why they wouldn't consider anything domestic.  They're usually less expensive to repair, take less time since the parts don't have to be shipped from overseas, probably less expensive to insure.  Besides... I work an american job where my product stays here, make american money... don't see why I shouldn't re-invest in an american product, especially since the quality is there.

[jeff_h]

Yes I agree, looks are subjective... as personally the front grille and food-processor-blade wheels on the Accord PHEV are definitely not for me.

 

Edited July 9, 2013 at 12:41 PM by jeff_h

[Gyrobob]

Yes I agree, looks are subjective... as personally the front grille and food-processor-blade wheels on the Accord PHEV are definitely not for me.

 

 

 

 

Agree lots.  I find the Fusion VERY good looking, especially for something so plebian as a midsized four door sedan.  The Accord just looks gorped up and dumpy.  Besides, it is not even available anywhere but NY and CA.

Edited July 9, 2013 at 04:19 PM by Gyrobob

[BadRock]

This suggests an interesting test. 

 

The tallest mountain, that I am aware of, where you can drive to the top is Pikes Peak in Colorado.  I was up there about 48 years ago and my recollection of the sign is it is approximately 14100 feet above sea level.  The entry point is 7400 feet above sea level.  The drive is longer than that since the road curves around the mountain.

 

So starting at the top with a depleted HVB how many miles would be put into the battery on the way down?

 

I have seen my battery display switch from the hybrid display back to the HVB display as a result of regenerative braking but it never got above 0 miles.

 

 

I live in Denver and frequent the Rockies, the best I've done for regen on mountain roads is 8 miles. Not bad if you ask me. I could probably do better if I was really trying but that was with normal driving techniques.