bobk

Thanks for finding that - it does go a good ways towards helping me understand the types and depth of testing. That said - given that they have done that large amount of testing, I am even more suprised and concerned that they can't put any numbers around the expected capacity loss, and what they will and will not cover under warranty for that, similar to what Nissan has done. If the theory is that they are holding back and waiting for a while longer for competitive purposes, then fine so be it, I guess I can give them the benefit of the doubt and wait for a while. Thanks

Thanks all. The mention of "15-20" amps in the manual is a bit confusing, however those are the two most common sizes of breakers for household 120V circuits, and 15A the far majority of the two. Very few people will have a 120V circuit with a >20A breaker, so perhaps there's hope. If they included both sizes for purposes of people going to their breaker box and checking the numbers on the switches. If the required current is under 15A, like 12,13, then people should be OK with a 15A breaker. If the actual requirement is 15A or slightly above, then even though breakers have a -/+ tolerance, you will have the occasional breaker trip, like you do sometimes with hair dryers and microwaves. Way above 15 (16,17) really means 20. In any case when someone finally gets their hands on the charger that comes with the car, if they can post the actual specs of it (should be labeled on it), that would be great. Thanks very much for the replies

Thanks for taking the time to post a thoughtful reply. > How would Ford gauge that for you? > So where you are and how you drive the car, and maintain it, will all come into play concerning capacity loss over time. I think my argument here is that they must have done some (hopefully a lot) predictive testing, made *some* assumptions and done some math - at least I hope so - in order to come up with the figure of 8 years. They could put out ranges for different usage profiles - it doesn't have to be one answer that covers everyone. Battery life numbers might be competitive advantages and perhaps slightly political but AFAIK they are not a single EPA-regulated number that has to be calc'ed and communicated a certain way. I agree that you can't pin it down to N decimal places but I don't think it's completely unknowable either. For gas vehicles they must make assumptions and perform testing with standard usage profiles. I would think that you could make some simplifying assumptions. And if doing a lot of hilly driving in the heat was going to have a material impact on battery life, I would sure want them to do the science needed to know what they were in for, in terms of arranging contracts for large numbers of OEM replacement batteries to be produced as the cars start to mature. The only thing that would be worse than finding out (in say 2019) your batteries need replacement would be to find out that there's a 2-3 month lead time because they under-predicted replacement rates. Actually your "cards close to the chest" idea makes the most sense to me, given what I know so far. > and other manufactures have had with their batteries over the past decade As for battery experience, I agree a decade of it is great - but LiIon chemistry is newer than NiMH - the bulk of road-years on all EVs to date has still been NiMH, please correct me if not.

Thanks. If the monitor circuitry is actually in the car, which makes sense, then that makes the $600 price slightly more painful. Seven hours is no problem, as long as it doesn't fry my wiring. That was my concern and the focus of my questions, and while I am not happy about $600 (assuming the included Ford charger doesn't work for me), I may be able to live with that, TBD. If anyone ever finds out the ratings on the Ford-included charger in the future, either from the dealer or when you finally take delivery, I'd love to know them. Thanks

Thanks - that Leviton charger would address my amperage concerns. I understand that there needs to be communications circuitry in it that talks to the car and monitors charge levels etc, and some breakers, but $600? Wow. Forgive my ignorance - do you not get a Ford charger, either something like the above, or something cheaper, with the car? Thanks

Thanks for the replies. ChuckJ, I wasn't suggesting that Ford wouldn't honor the warranty as written, for problems that are covered by it. But capacity loss, as Ford has defined it but has not communicated out specifics of (yet), appears not to be covered by them, but is (now) covered by Nissan. Not sure where the 25-30 comes from as 21 is the published number as I understand it and I doubt that's the low end. My concern is that other manufacturers appear to be able to put somewhat more structure around what is and is not covered by "capacity loss", so it would be good if Ford could do the same, prior to large numbers of people purchasing the vehicle. I'm trying to figure out whether this is too big of an unknown for me or not. In the absence of any numbers from Ford I may have to use Nissan's predictions as a guide.

Thanks for the reply. I have a dedicated 120V circult that has nothing else on it, and is connected to a 15A breaker. My concern is whether and how much Ford's 120V charger runs above 15A (= 1.8 kW). I really don't want to pull anything new if not absolutely necessary.

Page 11 (Note: Lithium-Ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss) is a concern also, however I would have expected any HV manufacturer to include such wording. I think that Ford should clarify what level of capacity loss is expected at various points in time, and therefore will not be convered under warranty. To say "8 years/100000 miles" or whatever may mislead - people may be under the impression that their battery will still get them 21 miles or whatever it is every time after 8 years, when it actually won't. And the problem is that that then becomes a problem for some people who operate at the high end of that rage and rely on the full capacity to go full-electric for their daily commute, they will then need to possibly have them replaced at their own cost, prior to the warranty period expiration. Positive anecdotal evidence like the above is appreciated and reassuring but obviously Ford had to base the 8/100K on something and that's the science I'd like to see (graduated as EE but have been writing software for 20 years). Edit: I realize that all parts, including HV batteries, in all cars, are subject to "normal" wear and tear, and that any part can fail at any time. However current car engineering is mature enough where (given usage pattern) we can generally predict average lifespans of components that undergo a lot of duty cycles, whether they are break pads, fan belts or (I hope) LiIon batteries.

meaning 120V charging. Many garages will only have 15A or 20A circuits for outlets, and those circuits may be shared with garage door openers etc. Does anyone know what the current draw will be? Ford hopefully had the good sense to think about typical home garage and wiring scenarios. Without knowing more about the battery profile I don't believe the amperage requirements can be worked out from just the battery capacity and the charge time.

Thanks for the information. Is this a delay from the original availability date, or was an availability date never really announced?

Hi - I've read this thread but still don't have any clear idea when Energis might actually be on a lot. Part of it is my lack of knowledge about Ford processes. Pre-ordering won't work for me. Assuming production starts on 1/21, what are people's best guesses as to when (EV-authorized) dealers might actually have them for sale? Thanks