Andre07

Ford really dropped the ball on the Hybrid and Energi vehicles with little to no Advertising In my end of the world, Canada all they ever advertised was the Ford Family Pricing. We only have 8 Certified Energi Dealerships across the country and the Inventory at many Dealerships was one or two at the most. Other Automakers are continually advertising that they are the only Auto Maker that has various Options like Lane Keeping, self parking, obstacle detections, Smart/Safe Cruise Control Systems etc that Ford Fusion and other Ford models have. Local Newspaper "Winnipeg Free Press" had the Auto Section talking about the BMW and Mercedes and Volkswagaon as the only Vehicles available today that are working on many of the Features that the Ford Hybrid and Energi have today, yet Ford is not bothering to get the Message out. I blame all this in the very poor advertising that Ford has done on. We live in the information Age yet Ford seems to want to continue by word and Mouth only it seems. Ford has produced a great Product except fr the 12Volt System (which they do need to fix) but the techonoly of the Hybrid and Energi are further than any other Automaker to date and I find the Price to be very reasonable for all the Car offers. The Advertising by Ford is what has kept the sales numbers much lower than they should have been. I decided to hold off on purchasing the Ford Fusion Energi till next year when I gett my "Old Man Cheque" I really just could not handle this purchase this year. I will continue to read all the posts and contribute when and where I can till I get my Energi Next Sept..... whether it be a 2013, 2014 or 2015 will depend on what is offered.

I am hoping that some of these Dealerships that are not selling the FFE consider sending some to Canada cause there are none available at any of the Dealerships I contacted. Ford Canada has been doing a terrible Job in Marketing and Adverstising. only 4 provinces have any Electric Certified Dealerships, Ontario(2), Manitoba (1), Alberta (1), British Columbia (1) last time I checked. If anyone has any more recent Numbers please post them. I did contact Ford Canada and expressed my dissatisfaction in how they have been Promoting the Ford Hybrid and Energi cause they are not since few Dealerships are certified for Energi. All they are doing is letting other Car Makers sell their Hybrids and Plug ins. Very disappointing for us Canadians

Battery Monitors are good in that they can be plugged into a Cigarette Lighter or Power port Plug as they are called now. But to check and meaure voltage , currents lower than 10A and Resistance a Multi-meter should be a tool all Homes should have. Most ppl would use the Voltage range which can be set to DC volts (Cars and Battery operated Equipment) or AC Voltage (House Voltages 110, and 240V A Digital Multimeter would be best and they are pretty in-expensive these days for Non Industrial Rated Meters. They can be had from $10 to $30., hhere are a few that are available thru Walmart http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=Multi-meter&ic=16_0&Find=Find&search_constraint=0 At $10.71 you can get this one: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Innova-3300-Equus-3300-Hands-free-Digital-Multimeter/14644665 or a better one for $26 http://www.walmart.com/ip/Innova-3320-Equus-3320-Innova-Auto-Ranging-Digital-Multimeter/14644666

Very strange that the battery Monitor started at 12.0V then increased to 12.5V without the battery being charged. The fact that you saw the bad battery light come on, would be pointing to an incorrectly operating Battery Monitor. Which type are you using? Would be a good idea to use a Multimeter to check the real Voltage at the charge/Test points under the Hood to get a correct reading.

Thanks murphy Sorry but Is the Reserve Capacity (minutes) 95 Amps or Minutes? Ok read your edit. Understood Thos BXT-96R-590 Reserve Capaticity is rate at being able to deliver 25Amps for 95 Minutes So compared to other batteries Capacity 700A / 20 hours = 56 Ah . This means that the BXT-99R-390 must have a lot lower Reserve Capacity and Cranking Amps, as you discovered when you replace the Battery. We are getting closer to getting actual values for the BXT-99R-390....... which are way lower that the 96R-590

Not sure that any relays can be energized with a Voltage under 11.0V I believe someone has mentioned that the Computer places the 12 Battery into Preservation Mode around that Voltage. So if 11.0 volts and higher is the value that the Battery is functional then the Currrent draw in the 28 hours of murphy's graph using a 15 ohm resistor the total current that was drawn would have been 21.735 Amps. Trying to post this Graph:. Hope it works, If it needs fixing up I will do it tomorrow, getting late. Using a 15 Ohm resistor as a constant Load Time Voltage Load Current Watts Amp/ Interval .............Ohms...............................2 hrs 0.0 12.20 15 0.813 183.000 31 12.150 15 0.810 182.250 61 12.050 15 0.803 180.750 91 11.950 15 0.797 179.250 121 11.850 15 0.790 177.750 2.007 151 11.800 15 0.787 177.000 181 11.750 15 0.783 176.250 211 11.700 15 0.780 175.500 241 11.680 15 0.779 175.200 1.564 271 11.670 15 0.778 175.050 301 11.660 15 0.777 174.900 331 11.650 15 0.777 174.750 361 11.640 15 0.776 174.600 1.554 391 11.630 15 0.775 174.450 421 11.620 15 0.775 174.300 451 11.600 15 0.773 174.000 481 11.580 15 0.772 173.700 1.548 511 11.570 15 0.771 173.550 541 11.550 15 0.770 173.250 571 11.530 15 0.769 172.950 601 11.520 15 0.768 172.800 1.539 631 11.500 15 0.767 172.500 661 11.490 15 0.766 172.350 691 11.470 15 0.765 172.050 721 11.460 15 0.764 171.900 1.531 751 11.450 15 0.763 171.750 781 11.430 15 0.762 171.450 811 11.415 15 0.761 171.225 841 11.400 15 0.760 171.000 1.523 871 11.400 15 0.760 171.000 901 11.390 15 0.759 170.850 931 11.380 15 0.759 170.700 961 11.370 15 0.758 170.550 1.518 991 11.360 15 0.757 170.400 1021 11.350 15 0.757 170.250 1051 11.340 15 0.756 170.100 1081 11.330 15 0.755 169.950 1.513 1111 11.315 15 0.754 169.725 1141 11.300 15 0.753 169.500 1171 11.275 15 0.752 169.125 1201 11.260 15 0.751 168.900 1.505 1231 11.250 15 0.750 168.750 1261 11.225 15 0.748 168.375 1291 11.125 15 0.742 166.875 1321 11.200 15 0.747 168.000 1.493 1351 11.190 15 0.746 167.850 1381 11.185 15 0.746 167.775 1411 11.175 15 0.745 167.625 1441 11.160 15 0.744 167.400 1.490 1471 11.150 15 0.743 167.250 1501 11.100 15 0.740 166.500 1531 11.085 15 0.739 166.275 1561 11.075 15 0.738 166.125 1.480 1591 11.050 15 0.737 165.750 1621 11.000 15 0.733 165.000 1.470 27 Hrs .............. Avg 0.806 A ................. 21.735 Ah in 27 hours

From what I was ready Stage one Hybrids use Ni-MH 2012 they were using Li-ion but they were having trouble with heat so they dropped the Manufacturer are going to start using new Batteries made by Hitachi. I believe Ford is doing it right by insuring the HVB are protected from heat and cold by maintaining a tight Temp range by turning on the AC or Heater as required, automatically

Sorry, I forgot to suggest trying a Stove ring Element or a Stove Baking Element if you had any laying around. I recall using both when I was doing some testing and if memory serves me correctly they had a resistance of around 0.250 ohms and they did not turn red hot cause it is only a 12 Volt Source they just got very warm to the Touch. I clamped it to a Table Vice for my tests. (that was over 30 years ago!!!!!!) It was just a suggestion to see how the BXT-99R-390 display the Volt/time Graph when drawing a Higher Current cause I believe the rate of Discharge would be steeper than it was with the 15 Ohm Resistor. A 5 or 10 Amp draw should also work, just that it would take Longer to bring the Battery to a SOC to 0% which would be around 8 V. (actually at 1.2 volts/cell or 7.2V) a Battery is considered Dead. But realistically I believe any Voltage below 11V would render the Battery Useless on the Car as it may be too low to energize any relays. I did a bit more research and most Hybrid Manufacturers are using Batteries with a Reserve Capacity of 45 to 50 Amp. Since these Batteries are used solely for Lighting, Fans, Computers and Screen Monitors they do not need too high a Current Rating but should be large enough so that the Battery does not go dead with regular use. Most of these Batteries being used are rated at CCA of 550 to 600 A at 0'F and 500 to 550A at 32'F, but the Reserve Capacity ranged from 40 Ah to 45Ah Most of the ones I checked have a Reserve Capacity rating of 7.5 - 8.0% of the CCA. So if the BXT-99R-390 follows the same ratio than I would think that this battery would have a Reserve Capacity of (390A * 8.0%) no more than 32Ah with a fully charged battery with a SOC of 100% or 12.6V. Another way to determine the Capacity of a fully charged Battery is by using the Ah rating divided by 20 Hours For the BXT-99R-390 which if we assume to be rated at 390 Ah, and we are not 100% certain of this yet it would been that this battery could deliver up to 19.5A for 20 hours (390 / 20) But we do not know what the rating is and can only assume it is 390 Ah from the Model Hopefully if the BXT-96R-590 Battery indicate the Ah and the Reserve Capacity then we could get a better handle on the BXT-99R-390 Is there a Reserve Capacity value imprinted on the BXT-96R-590 Label by chance? If yes would it be around 45 Ah or 50Ah?

This is very interesting and worthy of taking note The Battery you linked above, the YAB063 as is displayed on the site: Features: 12V45Ah380CCASealed Calcium3 Years Warranty Now although this may or may not be very similar to the BXT-390R-390 the YAB063 indicates that it is rated 380 CCA but is rated at only 45Ah. Meaning that it can deliver 45 Amps for 1 hr then the SOC may go so low that it is not usable The BXT-99R-390 appears to have a CCA rating of 390, by the Model Name, so I wonder what the Ah rating is. I have a feeling it may be well under 300Ahs or so many ppl would not be reporting so many issues. As murphy has stated that after after removing the L2 charger and the 12V battery was fully charged that not 12 hours later the 12 Volt Battery had a SOC of only 60% with only the Computer, perhaps the "Call Home" running and calling as it pleases. I wonder how long the BXT-99R-390 would be able to sustain an 11V rating with a Load of say 45 Amps. This would be a good test to determine the Ah rating of this small Battery. Hopefully murphy will have a chance to run this test with say a 45 Amp Load (266 mΩ resistor) since he has a Voltage Plotting Meter. (Hint...Hint...murphy)

Thank you for taking the time to confirm what we have been suspecting for a few weeks now, that the 12 Battery being used on the Ford Hybrids is just an under powered Standard Lead Battery. I agree totally, that it is very disappointing that Ford did not use an AGM Battery, and with a higher Amp Hour Rating. I have been looking around locally for an AGM Battery with the dimensions you had posted in another thread but so far no luck. Only AGM Batteries I have seen so far are from Motor Master in Canada. They are rated at 700-800 A but are Group 78/34. I will keep looking since nothing is coming up with Google Searches as of yet. Optima and Odyssy Batteries are availabe in the USA but cannot find any of these in Canada. Sears and Kmart in the USA, handle Diehard AGM Batteries, so I will be dropping by the Sears Canada and other stores this week to see what they may be carrying and what the Batteries are rated at.. Can you please post the dimensions of the BXT-96R Battery and what type of Posts they have? I will report back if I should happen to find a AGM Battery that may fit Thanks again for the great work you are doing on this Site to help out all our Members. It is very much appreciated.

I would leave the Charger set to Standard cause I do not believe the BXT-99R-390 is anything but a standard Liquid filled Lead Acid Battery. Do you happen to have a Multi-meter by chance? If yes, please take a Voltage reading at the Posts that you are charging at cause a Charging rate of over 14.4 VDC is excessive and if it does charge at 15.5 volts or higher as you have indicated, the Battery could be over charging and the Battery could over heat, causing the Electrolyte to boil and vent out Oxygen and Hydrogen which is very Flammable and could warp the Lead Plates which in turn cause them to Short out.. Hopefully the External Charger is just reporting a higher Voltage than it is actually Supplying

When you had the BXT-99R-390 out of the car did you notice if the Cell caps could be removed or if it was sealed. Most AGM Batteries I have seen are Sealed. The cells can be checked but the whole Top of the Battery needs to be cut open Gel Batteries are similar in that they are also sealed. Most Lead Acid with Liquid Fill have vent caps, some newer ones seem to be sealled but they are not and can be pried with a Screw driver. These used called Low Maintenance. From your Discharge graph using a 0.8 Watt Load, the inital discharge rate seems to be too steep for the Battery to be a AGM Battery, but am not totally certain.

Are you charging it with the L2 or L1 Plug or are you using an external 12 Volt Charger? Sorry but I do not yet have an Energi so I am not able to check for myself When you say the SOC is displaying 100% or 95% is that on a specific Screen? I would trust a Multi meter on the 12 Volt Posts to get the Actual Voltage if after Chaging and reapplying the charges says it is only 95% charged

Thanks for th info larry. Very strange how the 12 Volt Battery is being charged so that each day the Peak Voltage after a 20 minute wait is varying so much. Since a Fully charged Battery should be reading 12.6V there seems to be a 2% variance which may be caused by circuitry in the car by the Meter itself but if it i from the meter seems a bit high as most should be .05 to 1%. At least we know that a prperly working charging system should be able to charge the 12V battery to around 12.6 after it has stabilized. Some members are reporting much lower Values. Wonder if you could run a test if you do not mind. After charging the 12 V Battery and after waiting 20 Minutes Can you please record the Voltage. If you have Fog Lamps, turn them on and check how long before the 12 V Battery goes into Battery Preservation Mode. With the fog lamps on we may determine how much current is drawn by checking the Current flow reported on the lamp. Most standard Fog Light Bulbs draw 35 Watts each if they use H11 Module I believe If you have no Fog Lights then can you turn on the Headlights and leave them on till the BPM turns the battery off and what voltage this occurs at. Not sure if you can get the Headlights on without the Parking lights or if the Cars must be "ON" Would be so much easier if we could bring up a Meter on one of the Meters to see what the actual Voltage and Current from the 12 V Battery is being used but since there is none we need to try this the hard and way. murphy has mentioned that he has noticed athat around 11.1V things start to shut down, just trying to find out at what Voltage the Battery Preservation Mode is triggered, cause I believe that there must be a Master relay that takes the 12V Battery out of action till it is a a High enough Value to allow it to be able to pick up the various relays

If you have a Battery tester (one that plugs into the Lighter) please leave it on and report what voltage you see before you start charging, what the rate is when charging and what it it is when you pull the charger off and what it reads 5, 10, 15, 20 minutes after I am sure others may be interested what you observe and report.

This Charger is fine Set it for 12 Amp Mode for quicker Charge, For overnight charging you can set it for 8 amp mode 2 Amp is for tinkle Charge good for Storange Batteries that are only use periodically

Thanks for the Graph murphy, great work. Any idea at what voltage on the 12 Volt Battery, the car goes into BPM, Battery Preservation Mode? I wonder how this Battery that Ford decided to use compares with other Lead Acid Batteries or AGM batteries I will try post a Amp Hour Graph for this battery from info displayed on your Graph. From your Graph, if we start at 12.2 V using your 15 ohm Resistor we can determine how much current is drawn and with that how much Power the Battery is storing and what reserve capacity. This is done is 30 Min intervals as depicted by the Graph. Attachment to follow:

Thanks for sharing Looking at the 2nd Last Pane it looks of the 18.3 Miles driven only 69% was using EV for a total of 2 kWh. Last and third last Pane seems virtually equal since 100% of the trip was using EV and that was 3.6 kWh to drive the 18 Miles Very impressive Numbers even if the Braking Regen may have been low, but then that would be determine by traffic conditions during your trip I like the First Pane where it shows you drove 23.8 Miles on 5.2kWh..... Now that is impressive even if 7.5 of those Miles was as a result of Regen power. Very impressive in deed.

Were you the sole Occupant in the Vehicle? Did it take the same time to get to work as it did to return home? Is the road going both ways flat or is ther a Uphill Slope going one way and downward slope returning? There can be some variables that need to be considered to try to figure out why the difference. As larry has mentioned, the milage being displayed could only be an estimate but would thing there to be a low percentage, ie +/- 0.5 to 1.0% Looking at your Snap shot that on Aug 13 trip you drove 24.4 Miles on EV and got 64 MPG Yet on Aug 14 you drove 21.7 Miles and got 50 PG So unless the Speed or the Road Grade was different or you had passangers between the trips, the values should have been much closer.

thanks for the explanation but am wondering how the AC unit or Heater is powered when the vehivle is in EVLater mode

See if I can try to help to clear this up a bit. A secondary battery, any Secondary Battery (chargeable) stores Energy. In the this case the HVB of on the Energi is rated at 7.6 KWh. Meaning that it has 7.6 KWh of Energy that can be used to propel the Vehicle and operate the AC and cabin Heater. From what I have been reading, Fords Hybrid Batteries for the Energi operate at a Peak 300+ VDC, so if this Battery has a capacity of 7.6 KWh then it can deliver power to the Electric Drive Motor, AC and Heater Coils at at rate of 25 Amps. 7.6KWH = 300VDC x 25.33 Amps x Hours Have not read anything on the Actual Voltage or Current Numbers delivered by the HVB, so these may be off by 5 or 10 % I believe that Ford uses Panasonic Li-Ion Batteries that are made up into Modules rated at 7.2 VDC each then connected in Series and Parallel to create The 7.6KWH HVB. Most Batteries used in these Battery Module Packs I believe are 18650 type Cell and delivers 3.7 Volts each and are rated at 3000Mh (3.0 Ah) each. This is why that although these Batteries can be rated at 300VDC +/- 5-10% the current that these Batteries can deliver is in the 25 to 30 Amp range.. As the Batteries become depleted, the Voltage it can deliver is lowered as is the Current and this is why I believe that the most that the HVB can deliver is around 6.0 KWh...... the more regen power that can be made the more the Battery is charged and can then deliver but as has been stated, I believe 1.2kWh is left in the HVB as reserve cause the Voltage and Current may be too low to be functional and also to preserve the batteries so they are not allowed to drain to too low a value. Hope this helps to figure out what those numbers may mean. Kind of wish the Meters on the screen could display not only the KHh but the Actual Voltage and Current that the HVB is being used to drive Motor, AC and Heater as well as when the Battery is being Charged, but for whatever reason the Ford Engineers decided to display values in KHw which is of course a Measure or Energy. Watts=Current x Voltage. As I have stated before I do not yet own a Hybrid but have been reading up on Hydrids and their Operation to get general information on how they work. I am hoping to get the Ford Fusion Energi cause I believe that this is the best Car on the Market for the price at the moment and hope to get one early next year.

mczajka, glad to hear they found the issue. On a general note, diagnosing would have been so much easier if the Ford Engineers were to display the 12V Battery info in one of the Screens. It should not be very difficult to add a Meter on the screen for the Voltage and Current that the 12 V Battery is using since I believe there is a Shunt on the Battery Circuit now. They just need to take advantage of what is already there and display the info that the Computer is using now. The 12Volt Battery circuit is the heart of the Vehicle and I find it to be an unfortunate oversight that the Ford Engineers chose not to include a Meter to Show the Voltage and Current draw on the Screen yet chose to include a Rad Temperature Gauge. Wonder if there is an Oil Pressure Gauge, cause I would think that to be important as well. oh well, just hope someone from Ford is reading these Threads and passes the info on. Back to the topic, glad to hear they found what may have been causing your particular issue. Hope others get their issues resolved as well cause from what I have been reading there are quite a few ppl having dead Battery Issues on other Energi, Max and MKZ's

I do not use Iphone or Ipad but Samsung S4 and Samsung Tab For the Android there is a free App called Magic Jack, which allows you to make free Calls to anyone in Canada and the USA. as long as you have an internet connection. I believe it is also available for the Iphone and Ipad. If Sync uses a Cell signal with Data Pac capability then I am thinking it may be possible. Sorry but I do not have an Energi yet so I can try it. Just not certain if Sync is configured to only "phone home" MyMobile Website.

A 14 Gauge Cable should be fine if it is less than 50 feet long. For anything longer, a 12 Gauge Cable would be recommended. House wiring uses 14 gauge wire for 15 Amps circuits but rated for continues loads of 12A. Depending on how far the Receptacle is from the Distribution Panel a voltage drop at the Receptacle can be present so, for longer runs, 12 Gauge wire is used in House wiring or Garage or Industrial wiring. This is often the case for dedicated Circuits that are known to draw 12 Amps continuously